What will our rotation look like next year?

[Norm Peterson]

7 minutes ago, hhcmatt said:

 

i'm bought in to both McGowens, Mayen, Walker, Verge, Kobe and Andre as part of the rotation. I've recently sold myself on Breidenbach having the Kevin Cross 'I get it' mind with hopefully better shooting ability. That's 8 guys.  Actually, I'd probably put Wilcher in the rotation after thinking about it. He'd worked his way into Xavier's rotation and reportedly has been stroking. That's 9 which is pretty deep.

 

So let me re-shift and wonder if Edwards and/or Keisei in the rotation?  That's potentially 10-11 guys for a coach who'd probably prefer to play 8. 

 

Well let's put it this way: No matter who makes the rotation, they'll have had to earn it by beating out someone else who was probably pretty good rather than by getting there because we just simply didn't have anyone else we could put out there with a straight face.

 

So, I guess if Edwards makes it, it's a good thing because it means he's better than someone else. And if someone else makes it, it's a good thing because it means someone else is better than him.

 

Hey, look at us! We actually have competition for playing time! Crazy times, man, crazy times.

[Huskerpapa]

I am still scratching my head.   I am not yet convinced the rotation is close to being finalized.  Some players play better when part of group A versus group B.  Veterans grouped with newbies?, or not???

I still believe playing time is wide open, as is starting roles.

[kleitus]

45 minutes ago, Huskerpapa said:

I am still scratching my head.   I am not yet convinced the rotation is close to being finalized.  Some players play better when part of group A versus group B.  Veterans grouped with newbies?, or not???

I still believe playing time is wide open, as is starting roles.

 

.... I'm not seeing a problem.

[Handy Johnson]

4 of those starters you can write down in ink, that 5th one is up for grabs & as someone else mentioned, I can’t see Fred playing more than 8 during games that matter...

[kldm64]

If I had to pick today, starters would be:

Alonzo Verge

Trey McGowens

Bryce McGowens

Lat Mayen

Derrick Walker

 

Assuming a 10 man rotation at most, here would be the bench players to get playing time

C.J. Wilcher

Kobe Webster

Eduardo Andre

Wilhelm Breidenbach

Keisei Tominaga

 

That is not a bad looking roster

 

[HuscurAdam]

19 hours ago, Swan88 said:

Trevor has already been there, done that low/mid major "play a lot" thing.

 

18 hours ago, millerhusker said:

There will only be 7-9 players in the regular rotation out of our 14 scholarship players. Having 5-7 guys sitting on the bench who all think they should be playing can cause a lot of problems. Trevor likely knew his minutes wouldn’t increase coming back this year. The value in having guys like that on the bench is under-appreciated. Illinois had a great season last year - 1 seed in the tourney and they only had 8 guys on their roster with a pulse. If you watched their bench players in mop-up minutes, it was hilarious. To an extent, depth (past the 9th or 10th guy) in college basketball is overrated. Good team guys are more important than pure talent at the end of the bench. It’d be nice if those two things weren’t mutually exclusive, but they often are (example: Trevor Lakes and Shamiel Stevenson). There was a reason Trevor wasn’t shown the door. 

 

19 hours ago, atskooc said:

Every team has players who won't see the floor unless it's the biggest of blowouts.

 

Trevor's situation is not unusual on that front.

 

Maybe he likes it in Lincoln and feels it's a good situation for him.

 

Playing time isn't everything.

 

I understand why keeping him is good for NU, he's another body for practice whose scholly doesn't count. That's great as long as he's a good locker room guy, which presumably he is. 

 

I just don't see the benefit for Trevor.  Competitors usually want to compete.  He played D2 before, so moving to a mid/low D1 would still be a big jump up and let him make a run at the dance, but instead he'll watch from the sidelines in his last year. 

 

I can only guess he's working to wards a grad degree that's more important to him, which is admirable.   

[HuscurAdam]

41 minutes ago, kldm64 said:

If I had to pick today, starters would be:

Alonzo Verge

Trey McGowens

Bryce McGowens

Lat Mayen

Derrick Walker

 

Assuming a 10 man rotation at most, here would be the bench players to get playing time

C.J. Wilcher

Kobe Webster

Eduardo Andre

Wilhelm Breidenbach

Keisei Tominaga

 

That is not a bad looking roster

 

 

I agree with that starting lineup and think it is pretty much set in stone.  The rotation is interesting because I think Fred will play as many guys as he trusts...the more he plays, the better for his preferred tempo to wear other teams down.  If I had to guess the main bench guys getting run will be Webster, Wilcher, Andre, and maybe Edwards. 

 

I'm probably on an island on this, but I don't think Wil or Keisei play much this year. I would expect them to avg less than 5 mpg, and step into bigger roles next season.  

[atskooc]

15 minutes ago, HuscurAdam said:

 

 

 

I understand why keeping him is good for NU, he's another body for practice whose scholly doesn't count. That's great as long as he's a good locker room guy, which presumably he is. 

 

I just don't see the benefit for Trevor.  Competitors usually want to compete.  He played D2 before, so moving to a mid/low D1 would still be a big jump up and let him make a run at the dance, but instead he'll watch from the sidelines in his last year. 

 

I can only guess he's working to wards a grad degree that's more important to him, which is admirable.   

Clearly Trevor sees a benefit in staying, which is all that's important.

[Keenan9595]

2 hours ago, HuscurAdam said:

 

I agree with that starting lineup and think it is pretty much set in stone.  The rotation is interesting because I think Fred will play as many guys as he trusts...the more he plays, the better for his preferred tempo to wear other teams down.  If I had to guess the main bench guys getting run will be Webster, Wilcher, Andre, and maybe Edwards. 

 

I'm probably on an island on this, but I don't think Wil or Keisei play much this year. I would expect them to avg less than 5 mpg, and step into bigger roles next season.  

I think if anything wilhelm stands the best chance, between what we’ve been hearing about him and how he really is the true backup 4 I think we’ll see him earlier than not.  Especially with the foul trouble lat got into last year, you could maybe run Eduardo at the 4 or maybe that’s where lakes sees some time due to his height and shooting ability, but I don’t think either of those are better than playing a super talented freshman who has been getting high oriase for his physicality and IQ in practice.  Just a thought, maybe we go real small with 4 guards instead?

[aphilso1]

I'm finding it difficult to come up with a rotation because so many players have a really high ceiling but also a really low floor.

 

-Will Keon look more like a former top 50 recruit, or like the guy who couldn't crack the rotation for a 5-14 DePaul?

-Will Keisei shoot his way into major minutes, or will he require a year to adjust to the American game?

-Is Wilcher's game well-rounded enough to play major minutes?

-Did Lakes just need a season to adjust to high level competition?

 

I think we can clearly write down Verge, McGowens (x2), Walker, and Kobe as guys that will play major minutes for us all season. That's 5 sure-fire rotation players.

 

Lat is almost assuredly in the above group too, but if he goes through a slump like last year then there will be players available to take his spot.  It's hard to see him completely falling out of the rotation though, even if he does go through an extended shooting slump.  So that's 6 in the rotation.

 

We NEED Eduardo to be good.  You just can't survive in this league with only one big body.  No offense to 210 lb Wilhelm and 205 lb Lat, but Andre is going to get every opportunity to platoon with DW at the 5.  That's 7.

 

There are some good teams that roll with a seven man rotation, but eight seems more common.  And you know that Fred is going to want to have a 3pt specialist to bring in off the bench -- either Keisei, CJ, or Lakes.  CJ seems like the safest bet since he was expected to be a major contributor for Xavier this year before he decided to transfer.  That's 8.

 

But we want to play up-tempo, right?  I could see HCFH preferring a nine-man rotation as long as he's got nine guys he trusts.  And that player probably needs to be able to play the 3/4 assuming the other backups are Kobe (1/2), CJ (2/3), and Ed (5).  So who is it?  Wilhelm, Keon, or Lakes? I'm guessing Wilhelm but not entirely confident in that.

 

So here's the rotation:

Starters - DW, Lat, BMac, TMac, Verge.

Key Subs - Kobe, Ed.

In the Rotation - CJ, Wil.

Situational - Keisei, Lakes, Keon.

Bench Mob - Quaran, Oleg.

Edited September 1, 2021 by aphilso1

[Norm Peterson]

@aphilso1 One point I'd make about Keon and Depaul is that he joined them mid-year. He was originally a 2021 recruit, just like Bryce. According to ESPN's rating, he'd have been a top 50 kid in the nation in the 2021 class. That's this year's freshmen.

 

When he joined Depaul, they'd already gone through summer workouts. Fall conditioning. Pre-season practices. And several games. He's joining an established rotation, going in there cold as a high school senior.

 

I wouldn't judge him at all by what he did at Depaul.

[Norm Peterson]

I would like someone unexpected to be so good we can't keep them off the floor.

[Keenan9595]

I’d like to point out that we are officially having conversations of “whose that 8/9 guy off the bench or do we run 10?” Compared to, “I think we are officially 6/7 deep and let’s see what happens?” Talks lol.

[OurDecay]

This is a great discussion.

 

My only question is if Lat as your starting 4 makes sense.  I suppose from an offensive and outside threat perspective it makes sense, but I would love to see them go big on occasion and slide Walker to the 4 with Andre at the 5.  If Andre is significantly stronger and progressed (he was on a really nice trajectory at the end of last year), his inside presence, length, defense along with his bounce on the offensive end would be very useful.

 

I also think Walker with a full season will dramatically change our team.  

[Norm Peterson]

1 hour ago, OurDecay said:

This is a great discussion.

 

My only question is if Lat as your starting 4 makes sense.  I suppose from an offensive and outside threat perspective it makes sense, but I would love to see them go big on occasion and slide Walker to the 4 with Andre at the 5.  If Andre is significantly stronger and progressed (he was on a really nice trajectory at the end of last year), his inside presence, length, defense along with his bounce on the offensive end would be very useful.

 

I also think Walker with a full season will dramatically change our team.  

 

There's certainly some potential that could work. Walker could be your traditional power forward and Eduardo certainly has the frame to play your traditional post. Everyone says Hoiberg just does positionless basketball. Not sure if that forecloses what you've described, but if not, I suppose it could happen.

 

The problem is that it takes a shooter out of the lineup. If we did that, we'd really need to make sure the backcourt was stacked with guys who can drain it from deep.

 

Interesting thought.

[aphilso1]

4 hours ago, Norm Peterson said:

@aphilso1 One point I'd make about Keon and Depaul is that he joined them mid-year. He was originally a 2021 recruit, just like Bryce. According to ESPN's rating, he'd have been a top 50 kid in the nation in the 2021 class. That's this year's freshmen.

 

When he joined Depaul, they'd already gone through summer workouts. Fall conditioning. Pre-season practices. And several games. He's joining an established rotation, going in there cold as a high school senior.

 

I wouldn't judge him at all by what he did at Depaul.

 

5 out of 7 of DePaul's first semester games were cancelled due to a COVID outbreak.  Keon missed only two games.  Two.  While he was wrapping up high school, his future teammates weren't exactly getting into mid-season form.  They were sitting in quarantine playing Madden on their Playstations.  And even if there was an established rotation when he joined at semester (which there wasn't), we're talking about a team that was the worst in the Big East by an enormous margin.  Sounds like a roster where a talented newcomer should've been able to get a shot to see what he can do. 

 

Perhaps Keon will became a great player for us.  He was rated highly for a reason, after all.  But it's fair to question whether he really can be a rotational player for us this season.

[millerhusker]

10 hours ago, OurDecay said:

This is a great discussion.

 

My only question is if Lat as your starting 4 makes sense.  I suppose from an offensive and outside threat perspective it makes sense, but I would love to see them go big on occasion and slide Walker to the 4 with Andre at the 5.  If Andre is significantly stronger and progressed (he was on a really nice trajectory at the end of last year), his inside presence, length, defense along with his bounce on the offensive end would be very useful.

 

I also think Walker with a full season will dramatically change our team.  

Highly unlikely Derrick and Eduardo will ever be on the court at the same time. In Hoiberg's 4-out (we also ran a ton of 5-out last year), there are two slots, two wings and a guy in the post. Derrick would be in the slot opposite the point guard where he'd be running pick and pops (Lat, Trevor, Thor, Cross, Kavas and Teddy have all been in this spot the last two years), and coming off flare screens on the perimeter. This doesn't fit his skillset at all, as it's imperative that the player in this spot is at least a threat to shoot, to keep the floor spaced so there's room for backdoor cuts and drive & kicks that Hoiberg wants constantly happening. Whenever Cross and Stevenson were in the game, their defender generally kept two feet in the paint at all times and it really stalled our movement on offense. 

I also wouldn't want either one of those guys defending the other teams "4". There are very few 90's-type 6'9" 260 lb. enforcer power forwards in college basketball. Those guys are centers now. Most 4's are 6'8" 210 lb., long and athletic. Derrick doesn't have the foot speed to keep up with those guys. With the way our roster is comprised, we're more likely to have 4 guards on the court than 2 traditional bigs. 

[hhcmatt]

The more important question regarding Andre and Walker is who will play at the 5 when they aren't? Things could improve from last year but Walker committed 5.8 fouls per 40 minutes and Andre committed 9.5 per 40.  Who is coming in the game when both guys have 2 fouls with 10 minutes to go in the first half or if one of those guys gets injured?

[49r]

2 minutes ago, hhcmatt said:

The more important question regarding Andre and Walker is who will play at the 5 when they aren't? Things could improve from last year but Walker committed 5.8 fouls per 40 minutes and Andre committed 9.5 per 40.  Who is coming in the game when both guys have 2 fouls with 10 minutes to go in the first half or if one of those guys gets injured?

 

Briedenbach?  Kojenets?

[Norm Peterson]

10 hours ago, aphilso1 said:

 

5 out of 7 of DePaul's first semester games were cancelled due to a COVID outbreak.  Keon missed only two games.  Two.  While he was wrapping up high school, his future teammates weren't exactly getting into mid-season form.  They were sitting in quarantine playing Madden on their Playstations.  And even if there was an established rotation when he joined at semester (which there wasn't), we're talking about a team that was the worst in the Big East by an enormous margin.  Sounds like a roster where a talented newcomer should've been able to get a shot to see what he can do. 

 

Perhaps Keon will became a great player for us.  He was rated highly for a reason, after all.  But it's fair to question whether he really can be a rotational player for us this season.

 

I don't want to get too off in the weeds, but I think you underestimate the value of joining a team in the summer and going through all of those workouts, followed by fall conditioning (which we're getting some video clips of our guys doing right now) and then full-blown practices, which began mid-October last year, more than a month before DePaul paused basketball activities due to Covid.

 

And it wasn't like they went cold turkey on hoops for 2 months. They flew to Iowa State for a game on December 6 that was called off after they got there. I have to assume they practiced for at least some period of time prior to leaving for that game. Also, I think Depaul played three games, not two, before Keon joined the squad. He enrolled for the winter term, which began January 3.  According to ESPN, Depaul played 3 games in December.

 

But, back to the preseason stuff, there's a reason why I've expressed concerns the past few years about guys like Keisei and Yvan missing all of summer workouts with the team while they chased other aspirations. I think stuff like that matters. All the other players on Depaul's team were D1 athletes, too. And they had the advantage of all that pre-season stuff. High school seniors who show up on January 3rd are going to feel lost.

 

Let's see what he does. Maybe he's not all that. But I'm not going to base that off of what he did at Depaul. I don't think that's a fair representation.

[Handy Johnson]

5 minutes ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

I don't want to get too off in the weeds, but I think you underestimate the value of joining a team in the summer and going through all of those workouts, followed by fall conditioning (which we're getting some video clips of our guys doing right now) and then full-blown practices, which began mid-October last year, more than a month before DePaul paused basketball activities due to Covid.

 

And it wasn't like they went cold turkey on hoops for 2 months. They flew to Iowa State for a game on December 6 that was called off after they got there. I have to assume they practiced for at least some period of time prior to leaving for that game. Also, I think Depaul played three games, not two, before Keon joined the squad. He enrolled for the winter term, which began January 3.  According to ESPN, Depaul played 3 games in December.

 

But, back to the preseason stuff, there's a reason why I've expressed concerns the past few years about guys like Keisei and Yvan missing all of summer workouts with the team while they chased other aspirations. I think stuff like that matters. All the other players on Depaul's team were D1 athletes, too. And they had the advantage of all that pre-season stuff. High school seniors who show up on January 3rd are going to feel lost.

 

Let's see what he does. Maybe he's not all that. But I'm not going to base that off of what he did at Depaul. I don't think that's a fair representation.

I have a buddy who’s a DePaul alum & he couldn’t believe we landed this kid. Star Power in the making, like you said someone might be just “too good” to keep off the floor, Edwards & Breidenbach would seem the most likely candidates.

[Norm Peterson]

15 minutes ago, hhcmatt said:

The more important question regarding Andre and Walker is who will play at the 5 when they aren't? Things could improve from last year but Walker committed 5.8 fouls per 40 minutes and Andre committed 9.5 per 40.  Who is coming in the game when both guys have 2 fouls with 10 minutes to go in the first half or if one of those guys gets injured?

 

I get that last year those two fouled at a higher-than-average rate. But it's probably not going to happen a lot that both of them pick up two fouls in a first half.

 

If it does happen, we no longer have Yvan, so I guess we'd probably roll with a combo of Lat and Wil.

[Norm Peterson]

30 minutes ago, hhcmatt said:

The more important question regarding Andre and Walker is who will play at the 5 when they aren't? Things could improve from last year but Walker committed 5.8 fouls per 40 minutes and Andre committed 9.5 per 40.  Who is coming in the game when both guys have 2 fouls with 10 minutes to go in the first half or if one of those guys gets injured?

 

By the way, I think this is probably the biggest reason we won't see Derrick and Eduardo on the floor at the same time playing a traditional, OG-version of a PF and a C. They are the depth for each other. We don't really have depth for them. Except for maybe Oleg, but he's sight-unseen and who knows how ready he'll be.

[basketballjones]

On 8/31/2021 at 3:57 PM, Norm Peterson said:

 

You could argue that Cam Mack did that a bit, but the players he was dropping dimes to couldn't hit their shots, so there's only so much polish you can apply to a turd.

 

Dalano could drive and kick to the corner or wing, but otherwise he'd be driving to the basket himself. You didn't see him drop the ball off much for someone else down low. And part of that was that just wasn't his game. I mean, if he gets it inside, he's not going to dish to the tall guy because he IS the tall guy.

Cam Mack had "only make the splash play" ability.

Dalano had "I'm gonna try to make the right play," ability. 

Hopefully Verge can fall somewhere in the middle of those two. 

[Norm Peterson]

21 hours ago, Norm Peterson said:

@aphilso1 One point I'd make about Keon and Depaul is that he joined them mid-year. He was originally a 2021 recruit, just like Bryce. According to ESPN's rating, he'd have been a top 50 kid in the nation in the 2021 class. That's this year's freshmen.

 

When he joined Depaul, they'd already gone through summer workouts. Fall conditioning. Pre-season practices. And several games. He's joining an established rotation, going in there cold as a high school senior.

 

I wouldn't judge him at all by what he did at Depaul.

 

That last sentence rhymed. Just sayin.