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A FewThoughts -- Don't take them too seriously

NUdiehard

By NUdiehard
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NUdiehard

NUdiehard

Posted
Posted

I think we can all agree that Fred gets a complete mulligan for at least one or two years as he tries to build this program from the ground up.  For Nebraska, Hoiberg was as close to a "home run" hire as we probably can ever get, and frankly, if he can't get it done during his tenure here, then we should all just agree to terminate this moribund program and put us all out of our misery.  He needs time.  He deserves time.  For those of us that have been doing this for decades, it stinks having to sit through another year(s) or inept and losing basketball, but for Fred it is year 0 so in the words of Coach Miles, "we can't put that history on him."

 

With that said, I am completely perflexed by this team he has assembled.  Yes, he had to scramble to piece this together in a matte of weeks, and it is a minor miracle we even have 13 scholarship players.  But for a coach who is renowned for shooting the basketball and playing a style of "5 out" with 5 shooters on the floor, it is hard to understand this group of players.  Not a single one of them (sans Kavas who, although a 5th year senior, looks like a deer in the headlights out there and not athletic enough to guard or get open) that has a nice shot.  And I don't think the first 2 games are an aberration.    Will they continue to shoot 20% from 3?  Probably not.  But this will never be a solid 3-point shooting team. To be honest, there isn't a single player on this current roster that I would be majorly disappointed if he transferred out except maybe Mack or Curtis.  And speaking of Curtis, why isn't he playing more?  I would take him over 13 guys on this roster right now, yet he sits on the bench.  He is young, he is talented, he can shoot (looks weird, but goes in).  Unless there is a disciplinary issue, I don't get it. 

 

If it was just for this year, then it wouldn't be much of a concern.  Again, this is year 0--the mulligan.  But we only have 2 seniors, so most of these guys will be sticking around for a while.  And the two redshirts--Banton and Walker--are even worse shooters than anyone that is currently eligible.  I don't understand why he recruited two centers (Walker and Yvan) that are (1) undersized, (2) can't dribble, and (3) can't shoot a lick.   They will never allow Fred to play a 5 out system.  Cross may eventually become an okay shooter (he is not a good shooter now), but he is not a center--he is 6'6" tall at best.  

 

Recruiting has also gotten off to a very slow start.  Our most promising 2020 recruit (Davis) backed out of his verbal.  Please don't tell me Fred didn't want him--he committed to Louisville!  And now Donovan is waiting to sign his LOI in April, which is never a good sign. 

 

And why didn't Hoiberg secure additional commitments for 2020.  I realize we only have 2 seniors and Miles already had two commits, but come on.  We need a serious upgrade in talent.  I would have expected Fred to be looking for multiple additional 2020 recruits and let things sort out after the season.  And yes, he still can, and I'm sure will, get more 2020 recruits.  It is just a little discouraging that he wasn't able to secure a single 2020 commitment for the November signing period.  In fact, he hasn't secured a single commitment from any recruit for any class since assembling the current roster last April/May. 

 

Have a bit of a concern about Doc being defensive coordinator.  His pack-line defense may have been great 15 years ago, but in an age where kids grow up shooting 3s and teams and coaches shoot 3s, putting 5 guys in the paint may not be the best strategy anymore.  Remember, Molinari brought a similar packline defense here, and after year after year of getting scorched, Miles had to finally force him to modify the defense to stretch out and contend against those 3 point shots--and it did work much better.  The game has changed, coaches must evolve with the game.  Hoiberg should know that better than anyone.  Strange that he would bring in a defensive coordinator that would be completely ill-suited to stop everything he wants to do on offense. 

 

Many people on this board are looking forward to a significant jump in year 2.  To those people, based on what we know now, what is it that you see that makes you think this team will be anywhere close to competing for the top half of B1G next year?  Unless there is a miraculous infusion of talent in the April signing period, I just don't see it at all.  Again, not down on Hoiberg for that, I believe he gets at least 2 years mulligan, I just don't see a quick fix here at all. 

 

Again, none of this is to question Hoiberg or say everything is doomed.  Most likely, Fred will pull a rabbit out of his hat and land some big time recruits here soon that will assuage all of these concerns.  But as things stand now, this is what I see.  I will continue to the games this year, but it just seems like none of these players are going to be the players that are going to take us to the next level.  I think almost this entire roster is going to have to be turned over before we get there.  And that could take many more years, which will still be worth it, but man, we've been doing this for so long already . . .

millerhusker

millerhusker

Posted
Posted

A few rebuttals.... Hoiberg has never recruited centers who are three point shooters. That’s a misconception that Chris Heady keeps writing in his articles, but it’s not true. His ideal player archetype for a center is Jameel McKay. McKay could’ve been described how you described Yvan and Walker (couldn’t shoot or dribble, undersized). But he’s what Hoiberg wanted in an athletic, rim-running, rim-protecting big whose main role on offense was to set screens and get offensive putbacks. That’s not to say he wouldn’t like to have a big who can shoot, but he never recruited one at Iowa State (Vanderbeken was a McDermott recruit). They would go 5 out at times with guys like Niang and White as their biggest player on the floor, causing mismatches. Banton and Cross fit that mold.
 

They are still recruiting for 2020. It’s not abnormal to not sign any players in the early signing period.

 

Doc doesn’t run the packline. It has packline principles, and he wants to keep the offense out of the lane, but it isn’t the pure pack. Doc wants to get out into passing lanes and harass ball-handlers to force turnovers, but you can’t do that as much without a rim protector to erase mistakes. We’ve offered a lot of bigs in the 2020 and 2021 classes who fit the mold of what we want on both ends of the court.

hhcmatt

hhcmatt

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, NUdiehard said:

And speaking of Curtis, why isn't he playing more?  I would take him over 13 guys on this roster right now, yet he sits on the bench.

 

Reports prior to the game vs Southern Utah were that Curtis appeared injured and it was unknown if he was going to play.

Norm Peterson

Norm Peterson

Posted
Posted

I think you're jumping the gun on some of this, nudiehard.

 

I get the angst.  But it's too early to be ringing alarm bells about things like recruiting. I'm going to give Fred the benefit of the doubt for now and assume he didn't get to where he is by being anything less than an astute evaluator of talent and a solid manager of his teams. I am going to take it as a matter of faith for now that Hoiberg knows: a) what he has; b) what he wants (in terms of player type); and c) what he needs (to fulfill what he wants in player type.)

 

As far as recruiting and wanting guys who can shoot the ball, the guys he had assembled or inherited included a group of players you had to think coming into the season would be able to hit perimeter shots. Kavas was one of the national leaders in 3-pt shooting. Jervay was over 40% in juco ball. Cheatham is a career 37+% 3-point shooter. We haven't been able to hit the broad side of a barn so far this season, but coming into the season, on paper, would have expected this roster to be a pretty good perimeter shooting squad.

 

We have no idea what's going on in terms of recruiting.  Davis decommitting is probably just one of those things. More disappointed about Donovan Williams, but we don't know what's going on in the background. We have no idea how his recovery is proceeding. Maybe he wants to make sure he'll still be a good fit.

 

I can see filing some of these things in the back of your mind and keeping an eye on them, but it's way to early to be raising alarm bells, which is the tone of what you posted.

cornfed24-7

cornfed24-7

Posted
Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, NUdiehard said:

"Many people on this board are looking forward to a significant jump in year 2.  To those people, based on what we know now, what is it that you see that makes you think this team will be anywhere close to competing for the top half of B1G next year?"

 

Not going to argue your point and say I think we contend for the top half next year. But, I also don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. These kids will get better. I attached a graph of learning curve theory. Right now with limited data this is what I am subscribing to. Which leads me into the next point.

 

"I just don't see a quick fix here at all."

 

I,  too, do not see a quick fix. I am, at the current time, not worried about recruiting. In a article in the journal star it mentioned Hoiberg recruited 14 transfers in 5 year. Almost 3 a year. We could again see a batch of new players next year the year after and so on. This seems to be the plan. And going back to the learning curve theory, he builds a base of players from the team he has this year while continually upgrading the roster. The idea being talent is upgraded each time shortening the learning curve. Luckily Miles left us in good standing with APR so this strategy can be utilized without cosequence.

At the moment this is how I am reading the tea leaves 😀

 

Quote

 

 

 

The-learning-curve-With-the-introduction-and-implementation-of-a-new-technique-high.png

Edited by cornfed24-7
thrasher31

thrasher31

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

This here's why it's gonna bug me for a long time that Yvan chose Team France over Team Fred this summer.

I understand both sides of it honestly. I wish he would've came with us but I can't blame him for wanting to play with his national team. Not many kids have the opportunity to do that

 

As far as Fred, I'm being patient. It's literally 2 games into the year. Curtis will get more PT as time progresses, so I wouldn't worry about that. As far as Yvan and Walker, look at MSUs centers. Ward, Tillman, and goins all were rim runners who had a defined role. I see something similar with Fred's system. You'll need the Yvan and Walker's come big ten play. 

 

PATIENCE. We'll be fine

tcp

tcp

Posted
Posted

Doc is capable of coaching more than one defense. I just saw him do it two seasons ago in Hattiesburg. 

 

He's got his work cut out for him with this bunch. They're not well-trained on the defensive end, so this is a project. Plus, Doc's not the HC, he's an assistant, so his template has to match what limitations Hoiberg gives him to work with in his offensive preferences. 

 

So, basically, we gotta leave Doc outta this (as we should have left Jim M out of Miles' discussions for the same reason). 

 

I'm not especially impressed with this group, either, and I'm not convinced this is an issue of getting talent to polish or play up to its natural level. I'm agnostic on that question, especially since actually watching them is going to prove rare. 

 

There really is nothing else to do but wait, sucky as that is on the internet. Let some of this season play out a bit. I mean, by all means, let out the frustration and lulz on the game threads and such, but I'd pretty much leave it at that. 

 

 

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dustystehl

dustystehl

Posted
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Posted
On 11/15/2019 at 11:13 AM, Norm Peterson said:

 

This here's why it's gonna bug me for a long time that Yvan chose Team France over Team Fred this summer.

 

When Yvan is your age, do you think he will regret his decision to play for his country? Or will he look back fondly on that decision?

 

Personally, I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. I understand your point, but look at it from the perspective of a 17 year-old kid getting ready to move to America for at least four years. Playing for France may have been a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 

49r

49r

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, dustystehl said:

 

When Yvan is your age, do you think he will regret his decision to play for his country? Or will he look back fondly on that decision?

 

Personally, I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. I understand your point, but look at it from the perspective of a 17 year-old kid getting ready to move to America for at least four years. Playing for France may have been a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 

 

Very much agree with this.

kleitus

kleitus

Posted
Posted

Honestly, in a best case scenario barring a miracle Yvan was going to pan out in year 2 or 3 regardless of what happened this year.  He's freakin' young to be doing this and he has the look and talent to make some B1G noise if he keeps moving forward with that talent.

 

Having him and Stevenson together at the 4 in a couple years should be a major luxury and it isn't rocket science to imagine both on the floor at the same time throwing some weight around... with Stevenson popping out for a 3 to keep the D honest.  I'm looking at Stevenson as Chuck Barkley-light... and that's not the worst comparison I've seen (and it's a heck of a player).  Yvan SHOULD play well with a player like that given a year or so of growth.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if Fred's bringing in players like that, let them do what they want for their country in the summer.  It won't hurt us.

Norm Peterson

Norm Peterson

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, dustystehl said:

 

When Yvan is your age, do you think he will regret his decision to play for his country? Or will he look back fondly on that decision?

 

Personally, I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. I understand your point, but look at it from the perspective of a 17 year-old kid getting ready to move to America for at least four years. Playing for France may have been a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 

 

I admit I'm being selfish. I'm a fan, for goodness' sake. And not a fan of France, particularly.

HolyBobpilgrimage

HolyBobpilgrimage

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, dustystehl said:

 

When Yvan is your age, do you think he will regret his decision to play for his country? Or will he look back fondly on that decision?

 

Personally, I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. I understand your point, but look at it from the perspective of a 17 year-old kid getting ready to move to America for at least four years. Playing for France may have been a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. 

 Good. Finally someone said it. 

Norm Peterson

Norm Peterson

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, HolyBobpilgrimage said:

 Good. Finally someone said it. 

 

Well … like I said above … I admit I'm being selfish.

 

I don't really care what Yvan will think about this decision when he's my age. I won't be around then and certainly won't be hanging out with Yvan to discuss his feelings with him.

 

But I am around now. And I'm a Husker basketball fan right now. And the Husker basketball fan in me thinks the team would have benefited if Yvan had joined them for the summer. And that's as complicated as the situation is to me. In other words, not very complicated. I'm not looking at the big picture here. I don't really care about the big picture.

 

To me, it's like if I groused about us losing a game and you came back with how the other team's bench player set a career high in points against us and it'll be a lifetime memory for him and selfish of me to wish the outcome had been different. Well, yeah, it's selfish. But I'm a fan of this team, not that other team.

 

Are you telling me that if Cam Mack decided to take advantage of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do a study abroad program next semester in Spain, you'd be down with it? Because memories and stuff?

dustystehl

dustystehl

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

Well … like I said above … I admit I'm being selfish.

 

I don't really care what Yvan will think about this decision when he's my age. I won't be around then and certainly won't be hanging out with Yvan to discuss his feelings with him.

 

But I am around now. And I'm a Husker basketball fan right now. And the Husker basketball fan in me thinks the team would have benefited if Yvan had joined them for the summer. And that's as complicated as the situation is to me. In other words, not very complicated. I'm not looking at the big picture here. I don't really care about the big picture.

 

To me, it's like if I groused about us losing a game and you came back with how the other team's bench player set a career high in points against us and it'll be a lifetime memory for him and selfish of me to wish the outcome had been different. Well, yeah, it's selfish. But I'm a fan of this team, not that other team.

 

Are you telling me that if Cam Mack decided to take advantage of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do a study abroad program next semester in Spain, you'd be down with it? Because memories and stuff?

 

I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying you're wrong. We are all fans on here, but that doesn't mean we have to have the same thoughts/feelings on every situation.

AuroranHusker

AuroranHusker

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, dustystehl said:

 

I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying you're wrong. We are all fans on here, but that doesn't mean we have to have the same thoughts/feelings on every situation.

 

And this is basically why message boards exist: for a hundred ppl, there are likely 100 opinions.

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