unelinstu's postgame chatter: vol 15, ed 17: Illinois

[Norm Peterson]

I tried to tell you guys.

[Norm Peterson]

Rocco is a bracketologist and not a Husker homer.

 

 

[Art Vandalay]

I love Tim Miles and hope he kills it at SJSU

 

I also believe he was hamstrung by the last AD and is a better coach than most think. I think he’d have done a whole lot better than what Fred has shown. I also saw no evidence he would get it done here. All of that can be true.

 

If I was building a program or needed to find a coach for a group of underdogs he would be a first call. Watching them fall apart the 2 years we had high expectations was rough. I can see why a change was made unfortunately. 
 

I know we can do better than 2 good years out of 7. We just need to find the right guy.

[millerhusker]

4 minutes ago, Art Vandalay said:

I think he’d have done a whole lot better than what Fred has shown.

The devil's advocate in me isn't sure this is true. The returning roster in 2019 was really poor, and Donovan Williams and Jervay Green weren't going to make it better.

People say the reason Hoiberg succeeded at Iowa State, but not here, is  because he was ahead of the game in terms of recruiting transfers. And now the rest of the college basketball world has caught up. The same is kind of true for Miles. He had two good seasons, by Nebrasketball standards. Both teams were heavily reliant on transfers, before it was this mainstream. 

The Big Ten has been better since Fred got here than it was for most of the Miles years. In 2018, we finished the regular season 22-9 and 4th in the conference, and we weren't on the edge of our seat on Selection Sunday. Ended up a 5 seed in the NIT, due to poor strength of schedule and lack of quality wins. 2014 was a ton of fun, but Miles himself was worried it was just a "flash in the pan" 10 games. He was right. The same group came back the next year and was extremely rough to watch, as you said. Aside from those two years, the rest of his teams were worse than nearly all of Collier's and Doc's teams, although they had more talent. They were still good seasons, nonetheless. Just had no reason to believe another season like those was on the horizon. 

[Art Vandalay]

3 minutes ago, millerhusker said:

The devil's advocate in me isn't sure this is true. The returning roster in 2019 was really poor, and Donovan Williams and Jervay Green weren't going to make it better.

People say the reason Hoiberg succeeded at Iowa State, but not here, is  because he was ahead of the game in terms of recruiting transfers. And now the rest of the college basketball world has caught up. The same is kind of true for Miles. He had two good seasons, by Nebrasketball standards. Both teams were heavily reliant on transfers, before it was this mainstream. 

The Big Ten has been better since Fred got here than it was for most of the Miles years. In 2018, we finished the regular season 22-9 and 4th in the conference, and we weren't on the edge of our seat on Selection Sunday. Ended up a 5 seed in the NIT, due to poor strength of schedule and lack of quality wins. 2014 was a ton of fun, but Miles himself was worried it was just a "flash in the pan" 10 games. He was right. The same group came back the next year and was extremely rough to watch, as you said. Aside from those two years, the rest of his teams were worse than nearly all of Collier's and Doc's teams, although they had more talent. They were still good seasons, nonetheless. Just had no reason to believe another season like those was on the horizon. 

I can understand that but I just feel Miles excelled at getting the most out of underdog or chip on their shoulder type guys/teams.

[millerhusker]

3 minutes ago, Art Vandalay said:

I can understand that but I just feel Miles excelled at getting the most out of underdog or chip on their shoulder type guys/teams.

I actually felt his first season here was his best coaching job. It was fun watching Talley, Ubel and a freshman Shavon fight. After that, I thought his teams chronically underachieved. We had 4-stars galore. Something Barry and Doc never had. 

[Norm Peterson]

1 hour ago, millerhusker said:

I actually felt his first season here was his best coaching job. It was fun watching Talley, Ubel and a freshman Shavon fight. After that, I thought his teams chronically underachieved. We had 4-stars galore. Something Barry and Doc never had. 

 

Millerhusker, I respect you a lot, so please take this in a spirit of being charitable, BUT ...

 

Given the attendant circumstances, THIS is maybe the best 4-game run I've ever seen.

 

Sun, Mar 10	vsIowa	W93-91 OT	16-15 (6-14)	Palmer Jr. 27	Harris 10	Palmer Jr. 6
Wed, Mar 13	vsRutgers *	W68-61	17-15 (6-14)	Palmer Jr. 34	Roby 6	Watson Jr. 5
Thu, Mar 14	vs21 Maryland *	W69-61	18-15 (6-14)	Palmer Jr. 24	Borchardt 9	Palmer Jr. 3
Fri, Mar 15	vs19 Wisconsin *	L66-62	18-16 (6-14)	Watson Jr. 23	Roby 6	Watson Jr. 3

[Norm Peterson]

Johnny Trueblood's stats during that stretch:

 

Sun 3/24	@1TCU	L 88-72	29	3-6	50.0	1-1	100.0	1-2	50.0	3	3	0	1	3	1	8
NIT - 2ND ROUND
Wed 3/20	vs5BUT	W 80-76	31	3-6	50.0	0-2	0.0	0-1	0.0	7	5	0	0	3	1	6
NIT - 1ST ROUND
Fri 3/15	vs19WISC	L 66-62	28	2-4	50.0	0-1	0.0	0-0	0.0	4	0	0	1	2	0	4
BIG TEN MEN'S TOURNAMENT - QUARTERFINAL
Thu 3/14	vs21MD	W 69-61	25	2-4	50.0	1-3	33.3	0-0	0.0	4	2	0	0	3	1	5
BIG TEN MEN'S TOURNAMENT - 2ND ROUND
Wed 3/13	vsRUTG	W 68-61	25	1-2	50.0	0-0	0.0	1-2	50.0	4	2	0	4	1	1	3
BIG TEN MEN'S TOURNAMENT - 1ST ROUND
Sun 3/10	vsIOWA	W 93-91 OT	26	0-2	0.0	0-1	0.0	0-3	0.0	6	4	0	2	1	2	0

[HuskerFever]

The mess within the Athletic Department is a contributing factor to many of the poor decisions we've made.

 

We can debate whether a coach should still be here or some coaches should be gone, but we have a few AD administrations to thank for where we are today.

[89Husker]

2 hours ago, millerhusker said:

The devil's advocate in me isn't sure this is true. The returning roster in 2019 was really poor, and Donovan Williams and Jervay Green weren't going to make it better.

 

I don't really buy the premise 2019 roster was going to be bad. If circumstances were different, and Kenya and Xavier Johnson were kept in the fold, 2017 and 2018 would have played out differently and the roster would have looked different. Davonte Davis is now a starter at a ranked Arkansas team. I am missing one or two others that were recruited and bailed out after the firing.  Assume he would have found a transfer or two with guaranteed playing time available.

[millerhusker]

7 minutes ago, 89Husker said:

I don't really buy the premise 2019 roster was going to be bad. If circumstances were different, and Kenya and Xavier Johnson were kept in the fold, 2017 and 2018 would have played out differently and the roster would have looked different. Davonte Davis is now a starter at a ranked Arkansas team. I am missing one or two others that were recruited and bailed out after the firing.  Assume he would have found a transfer or two with guaranteed playing time available.

We'll agree to disagree.  FYI, that's a different Davis. Dre Davis is the one who was committed to us. He and his brother, Tae, play for Seton Hall. 

[Norm Peterson]

1 hour ago, millerhusker said:

We'll agree to disagree.  FYI, that's a different Davis. Dre Davis is the one who was committed to us. He and his brother, Tae, play for Seton Hall. 

I have it on good authority that Luka Garza was a Husker lean until Miles was not extended. We had Xavier Johnson and lost him because Kenya bailed due to job uncertainty. We lost Mika Adams-Woods who’s been a 4- year starter basically for Cincinnati. We might have gotten Chucky had we kept Miles. The Davis brothers might have been here too.

 

So you can’t really say “Miles had a bad returning roster” without acknowledging why it was that way and who he might reasonably have had if the ADs hadn’t cut him off at the knees.

[millerhusker]

13 minutes ago, Norm Peterson said:

I have it on good authority that Luka Garza was a Husker lean until Miles was not extended.

Interesting

[brfrad]

2 hours ago, Norm Peterson said:

I have it on good authority that Luka Garza was a Husker lean until Miles was not extended. We had Xavier Johnson and lost him because Kenya bailed due to job uncertainty. We lost Mika Adams-Woods who’s been a 4- year starter basically for Cincinnati. We might have gotten Chucky had we kept Miles. The Davis brothers might have been here too.

 

So you can’t really say “Miles had a bad returning roster” without acknowledging why it was that way and who he might reasonably have had if the ADs hadn’t cut him off at the knees.

Roby still had a year of eligibility.   Does he return with Tim, or still leave early.  I was in your camp, with keeping Miles.  However, Fred was too appealing to pass up.

[hhcmatt]

[Dead Dog Alley]

6 hours ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

Millerhusker, I respect you a lot, so please take this in a spirit of being charitable, BUT ...

 

Given the attendant circumstances, THIS is maybe the best 4-game run I've ever seen.

 

Sun, Mar 10	vsIowa	W93-91 OT	16-15 (6-14)	Palmer Jr. 27	Harris 10	Palmer Jr. 6
Wed, Mar 13	vsRutgers *	W68-61	17-15 (6-14)	Palmer Jr. 34	Roby 6	Watson Jr. 5
Thu, Mar 14	vs21 Maryland *	W69-61	18-15 (6-14)	Palmer Jr. 24	Borchardt 9	Palmer Jr. 3
Fri, Mar 15	vs19 Wisconsin *	L66-62	18-16 (6-14)	Watson Jr. 23	Roby 6	Watson Jr. 3

 

His best stretch of coaching, by far, was when he knew he was going to get fired.

[Craytonhater]

11 hours ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

Listen, you're attacking me with strawman arguments. I'm not going to respond to this. Anyone can search what I said at the time. Time has proven that what I said back then was right. Miles was a better coach than we gave him credit for and he was being hamstrung by the AD's office. Go look at what Tim Miles is doing this year.

 

 

Im not attacking you.  Fact is the guy finished bottom 4 5 out of 7 years.  If he was such a great coach why did no one hire him after he was fired and why is he coaching in the Mountain West?  I get he was likeable and quirky, but after 7 years this univ deserved better.

[Norm Peterson]

13 hours ago, Craytonhater said:

Im not attacking you.  Fact is the guy finished bottom 4 5 out of 7 years.  If he was such a great coach why did no one hire him after he was fired and why is he coaching in the Mountain West?  I get he was likeable and quirky, but after 7 years this univ deserved better.

 

OK and you're seeing how well that played out.

 

If we were Rutgers and Steve Pickiell was Tim Miles, posters on this board would have been calling for him to be fired after two straight last-place finishes his first two seasons and an almost-last-place finish his third.

 

This university deserved better after 7 years of Miles? Did we set Miles up for success here? If you want to say we did, then explain to me why Scott Frost and Fred Hoiberg were both allowed to bring in outsiders -- like the Navy Seal guy -- to work with their teams on leadership and toughness, but Tim Miles was not.

 

Explain that one to me.

[Norm Peterson]

After 7 years, this university deserved better? Better than what? Better than 13-5 in conference in year 6 followed by a year 7 in which two starters went down with season-ending injuries and we STILL had the end-of-year heroics we had, including a second-straight trip to the NIT?

 

If Hoiberg's 5th Husker team somehow manages to reach the post-season next year, people around here would wet themselves. Some of them being the same people who argued Tim Miles should be fired after reaching the post-season in year 7.

 

The patience with Fred and impatience with Tim mystifies me.

[Norm Peterson]

17 hours ago, brfrad said:

Roby still had a year of eligibility.   Does he return with Tim, or still leave early.  I was in your camp, with keeping Miles.  However, Fred was too appealing to pass up.

 

I agree the Hoiberg hire seemed, at the time, like a can't-miss. If you HAD to fire your current coach AND Hoiberg was available and interested, it would seem like a no-brainer hire.

 

I got a ration of grief at the time from a number of people on this board who claimed I was going down with the Tim Miles ship. I was reminded of this recently when someone said my claimed support of Miles was "revisionist history" and so I went back and looked at the old threads.

 

Seeing how it has all played out, it's kind of hard not to come back with a little bit of "I told you so."

 

On the other hand, I'm willing to accept that the Tim Miles ship sailed and to agree that Hoiberg would have appeared like a home run hire, would have been expected to succeed readily, and can only be criticized in hindsight. Nobody would have anticipated the degree of failure here, including me.

 

Still ...

[hskr4life]

6 minutes ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

 

The patience with Fred and impatience with Tim mystifies me.

So much this.  How anyone can say that Tim’s teams weren’t getting it done and had plateaued and then also say Fred deserves more time is beyond me.  I think that’s what annoys me most.  In the off season we had a thread about what Fred needed to get done this year.  Multiple people said post season or bust minimum.  I still hold this thought.

[Craytonhater]

42 minutes ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

OK and you're seeing how well that played out.

 

If we were Rutgers and Steve Pickiell was Tim Miles, posters on this board would have been calling for him to be fired after two straight last-place finishes his first two seasons and an almost-last-place finish his third.

 

This university deserved better after 7 years of Miles? Did we set Miles up for success here? If you want to say we did, then explain to me why Scott Frost and Fred Hoiberg were both allowed to bring in outsiders -- like the Navy Seal guy -- to work with their teams on leadership and toughness, but Tim Miles was not.

 

Explain that one to me.

So Tim failed cause he couldnt bring in a navy seal guy.  Not due to bad recruiting, not due to bad assistant hires, not due to keeping players?  I mean you get handed a brand new facility and $ that has never been spent before and your only success in 4 early years was lightning in a bottle.  Is the only reason everyone loves Tim is his charm or that he wasnt as bad as Fred.  It blows my mind that everyone lives in revisionist history

[HuskerBB]

1 hour ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

The patience with Fred and impatience with Tim mystifies me.

 

I get this point - but also would say the impatience with Miles is not a reason to not be patient with Hoiberg.  (Although I don't think that is what you are saying).   One could argue that maybe some might have learned from Miles that we should be more patient.

 

I for one am just so tired of this revolving door of coaches and I don't think that is the way to build a program.   As Norm said in the other post - I would have supported giving Miles more time but was also thrilled when we got Hoiberg.   Results under Fred have been very disappointing but I for one (maybe the only one) am not anxious to start over again with someone else.

 

[HB]

1 hour ago, Craytonhater said:

So Tim failed cause he couldnt bring in a navy seal guy.  Not due to bad recruiting, not due to bad assistant hires, not due to keeping players?  I mean you get handed a brand new facility and $ that has never been spent before and your only success in 4 early years was lightning in a bottle.  Is the only reason everyone loves Tim is his charm or that he wasnt as bad as Fred.  It blows my mind that everyone lives in revisionist history

Or not due to his ADs cutting his nuts off and impairing his recruiting and assistant coach retention?  Any chance of having any balance to your views?   

[HuskerFever]

Can we just win an NCAA tournament game already so we don't have to relive every nook and cranny of our missteps and "what-ifs" between Nee, Collier, Sadler, Miles, and Hoiberg?