Difference between this team and Doc's teams

[Norm Peterson]

I don't think it has much to do with the players. The difference is Doc HOPED the Huskers might steal a win and Miles BELIEVES we can take one away. It pains me to say this because I loved Doc as a person but, IMO, if Doc were coaching this same squad of players we would have lost against ILL and Indy and Minnesota and @ NW and probably Georgia and Miami to boot. It has very little to do with the players' talent. It has a lot to do with the heart and mind of the coach.

Hmmm.  That's a very interesting observation.  I defer because you're obviously the expert in such matters and you would see things that would escape the normal person's attention.  But, do you think it might have been different in Doc's first couple of seasons?  Like when we beat KSU and Mrs. Beasley?   Seemed like there was a lot of believing going on that year and the following one.

[AuroranHusker]

Miles is generally a more positive person than Sadler, IMHO. It seems to effect their vision of the program in the eyes of the beholder.

[KZRider]

 

I don't think it has much to do with the players. The difference is Doc HOPED the Huskers might steal a win and Miles BELIEVES we can take one away. It pains me to say this because I loved Doc as a person but, IMO, if Doc were coaching this same squad of players we would have lost against ILL and Indy and Minnesota and @ NW and probably Georgia and Miami to boot. It has very little to do with the players' talent. It has a lot to do with the heart and mind of the coach.

Hmmm.  That's a very interesting observation.  I defer because you're obviously the expert in such matters and you would see things that would escape the normal person's attention.  But, do you think it might have been different in Doc's first couple of seasons?  Like when we beat KSU and Mrs. Beasley?   Seemed like there was a lot of believing going on that year and the following one.

 

My recollection is that Doc had a knack for getting into KSU's heads but that didn't translate into other teams. He did have Maric the first year while riding the high of a new "era" and that did help the few couple of years but after Maric he lost a lot of games he should have won and won precious few he should have lost. Did you, or others, attend practices much while Doc was coaching. If so, did they laugh together very much? I would be surprised if they did. I'm sure Miles works them hard but I would venture to guess they laugh more. I don't know Miles but I knew Doc -- not well but well enough -- to think I had a read on him. There was always something that made me think players feared screwing up and losing with Doc more than they wanted to win for him. I'm guessing it is the other way round with Miles. I'd love the feedback on this diagnosis from afar from others who see things closer up.

[Coaches kid]

I lurk here everyday, but don't post. I couldn't help weighing in here, however. I agree to a large extent, Norm, that Petteway is a major reason for the difference in results between Doc and Miles. I do think, however, Miles has a few things going for him that Doc did not. First, Miles appears to be a master motivator. Good coaches have the ability to impose their will upon their teams, and I think Miles has that vibe.

 

Second, I think Miles has an offensive philosophy which enables guys with offensive tools to be successful. More than that, he was able to get a few players who are actually able to execute that philosophy...foremost, Petteway. I know Shavon is Doc's recruit, but he is able to thrive in a motion offense with the skills he possesses. He will get better as well.  Pitchford is somebody who I think we will see grow immensely over the next few years. I don't think he will be a star, but I think he will end up being a darn good B1G player.

 

The bottom line, however, is that we need a few more bodies who are skilled offensive players - who can either create their own shots or possess particular skills which allow them to make us a more potent team. For example, we could use somebody who can consistently score in the post or who can knock down threes and has the ability to put it on the floor with a mid-range game. I remember one of the former college coaches who now does commentary say that to be a national contender, a team has to have at least three good viable offensive options. I would tend to agree with that. We aren't quite there yet. 

[HuskerFever]

The difference is Doc HOPED the Huskers might steal a win and Miles BELIEVES we can take one away.

 

Say what you want, but man-oh-man, Doc really wanted it. That last press conference was a tough one to get through. Doc is truly a class act.

[PimpMario]

I don't know why we are dragging Doc through the mud.

 

Lets just be thankful he recruited Shields and Gallegos.  

[Coaches kid]

I liked Doc too. He was a loyal guy and a  pretty good coach in many respects.  I would have loved to see him succeed as well.  Hopefully, he will get another chance some day.

[Cybrrmonky]

We haven't had a guy like Pettaway since Pike.  He can score from everywhere, in every way possible.  We're just starting to see him come into his own.

 

I think we're just scratching the surface on how good Pettaway is.  He's going to be a fantastic player.  I have little doubt that he's going to be a in the NBA for awhile. 

 

Hopefully Miles can capitalize on Pettaway's star power.  Hopefully we get 2 more years out of him but I think its highly likely he'll jump to the pros after next year.  He's already going to be a finalist for Big10 player of the year this year.  If the team has a good season next year he could be the Big10 POY.

[GoBigRed]

We haven't had a guy like Pettaway since Pike.  He can score from everywhere, in every way possible.  We're just starting to see him come into his own.

 

I think we're just scratching the surface on how good Pettaway is.  He's going to be a fantastic player.  I have little doubt that he's going to be a in the NBA for awhile. 

 

Hopefully Miles can capitalize on Pettaway's star power.  Hopefully we get 2 more years out of him but I think its highly likely he'll jump to the pros after next year.  He's already going to be a finalist for Big10 player of the year this year.  If the team has a good season next year he could be the Big10 POY.

 

Love Petteway, but his turnovers and carelessness in general at times need to improve before NBA scouts really want him. That's what 2 more years of CBB are for

[HuskerFever]

Petteway seems to have his mind right. From what I hear, he's always pushing to improve. When that talent starts to grow, he'll be an even greater asset because he doesn't seem like the type that will let the success get to his head.

[Norm Peterson]

KZ, I loved Doc, was a big fan of him.  But, in all honestly, I'm not sure about the "laughing together" part.  I didn't see what happened in the film room or the locker room.  I only saw what happened on the floor during practices and Doc would go hoarse yelling at people.  He was an ass chewer and he challenged guys and when they were on the floor it was all business.  Now, while they would be doing individual work like shooting freethrows and some of the guys would be shagging balls for the guys who were shooting, Doc would go around and flip some of them some good-natured crap about something. 

 

Periodically, he'd yell at someone in a way that made everyone laugh.  For instance, I was at a practice that Marcus Perry attended and was watching from the sidelines and Doc was yelling at someone about how bad they were playing defense, how it was as bad as Marcus Perry's defense.  He looked for all the world like he was pissed but everyone, including Marcus Perry, laughed about it.

 

I don't know if that sheds any light on anything or not.  I would say that I think players were afraid to screw up in practice.  And certain players were primarily on the receiving end, including Ryan Anderson his freshman year and Toney McCray his whole career.  Doc yelled but I'd seen Danny Nee yell worse, so I figured that was just par for the course for a major college hoops coach.

[Huskerpapa]

Doc had open practices, Coach Miles does not

Coach Miles appears to leverage his assistants much more effectively and efficiently

Coach Miles seems to make effective in-game adjustments...whereas Doc tended to be a bit more stubborn.

[nebrasketball10]

Doc had open practices, Coach Miles does not

Coach Miles appears to leverage his assistants much more effectively and efficiently

Coach Miles seems to make effective in-game adjustments...whereas Doc tended to be a bit more stubborn.

I agree with this. Probably fair to say that Miles has better assistants, too.

Agree with most of what Norm has said about Doc. He yelled a lot, but they had a good time. Especially in comparison to Collier, who just put them to sleep.

[nebrasketball10]

Doc had open practices, Coach Miles does not

Coach Miles appears to leverage his assistants much more effectively and efficiently

Coach Miles seems to make effective in-game adjustments...whereas Doc tended to be a bit more stubborn.

I agree with this. Probably fair to say that Miles has better assistants, too.

Agree with most of what Norm has said about Doc. He yelled a lot, but they had a good time. Especially in comparison to Collier, who just put them to sleep.

[AuroranHusker]

Doc had open practices, Coach Miles does not

Coach Miles appears to leverage his assistants much more effectively and efficiently

Coach Miles seems to make effective in-game adjustments...whereas Doc tended to be a bit more stubborn.

 

 

This.

[jimmykc]

Hey, Coaches Kid, I don't want to highjack this thread but I  am also a coaches kid  and I wonder how many other people who post here are too. For example, I believe kidney said his last name was Wooden.

[ladyhusker]

If you're talking quality of assistant (which can, and often today, DOES impact the quality of recruit), Miles also has something like twice the budget for salaries that Doc did, so there's that. In my diabolical mind, sometimes I wonder what would happen if we could find a time machine and transport Miles to the pre-practice facility Devaney or transport year-2 Doc to the arena. Time has a way of glossing over some faults while bringing others out, and there's a certain optimism that goes with newness. The saying that only time will tell is a cliche for a reason. I like Miles a lot. I also liked Doc a lot. But I think a lot of us were pretty pleased with the Year 2 version of Doc (20-12 record that year, with wins over a handful of ranked teams), just as much as we are with the Year 2 version of Miles, and as much as I'm hoping to see us project upward more, it's still a little too early to make any sweeping judgments yet.

[KZRider]

I don't know why we are dragging Doc through the mud.

 

Lets just be thankful he recruited Shields and Gallegos.  

If anyone thinks I am speaking unkindly about Doc, I apologize. I had and have great admiration for him as a person and as someone who knows the game of basketball. There are few things I would rather do that sit down with him over a Diet Mountain Dew and one of the last things on earth I would want to do would be to cause him pain.

[KZRider]

KZ, I loved Doc, was a big fan of him.  But, in all honestly, I'm not sure about the "laughing together" part.  I didn't see what happened in the film room or the locker room.  I only saw what happened on the floor during practices and Doc would go hoarse yelling at people.  He was an ass chewer and he challenged guys and when they were on the floor it was all business.  Now, while they would be doing individual work like shooting freethrows and some of the guys would be shagging balls for the guys who were shooting, Doc would go around and flip some of them some good-natured crap about something. 

 

Periodically, he'd yell at someone in a way that made everyone laugh.  For instance, I was at a practice that Marcus Perry attended and was watching from the sidelines and Doc was yelling at someone about how bad they were playing defense, how it was as bad as Marcus Perry's defense.  He looked for all the world like he was pissed but everyone, including Marcus Perry, laughed about it.

 

I don't know if that sheds any light on anything or not.  I would say that I think players were afraid to screw up in practice.  And certain players were primarily on the receiving end, including Ryan Anderson his freshman year and Toney McCray his whole career.  Doc yelled but I'd seen Danny Nee yell worse, so I figured that was just par for the course for a major college hoops coach.

 

I'm imposing an observation from working with families on a basketball team. Since I am not a coach and never played the game at this level maybe that observation doesn't hold. The struggling marriages/families I work with are almost always lacking in laughter. It is not that laughter makes the relationship work but the thing that makes the relationship work leads to laughter. People only go so far in any aspect of life because they are yelled at. It takes something more to get them to run through a brick wall for you. I believe we see it in Tim Miles more than any other Husker BB coach in my lifetime. I know there are times when a coach has to yell but it would surprise me if the team and Miles don't also have a lot of times when they laugh together.

[Norm Peterson]

If you're talking quality of assistant (which can, and often today, DOES impact the quality of recruit), Miles also has something like twice the budget for salaries that Doc did, so there's that. In my diabolical mind, sometimes I wonder what would happen if we could find a time machine and transport Miles to the pre-practice facility Devaney or transport year-2 Doc to the arena. Time has a way of glossing over some faults while bringing others out, and there's a certain optimism that goes with newness. The saying that only time will tell is a cliche for a reason. I like Miles a lot. I also liked Doc a lot. But I think a lot of us were pretty pleased with the Year 2 version of Doc (20-12 record that year, with wins over a handful of ranked teams), just as much as we are with the Year 2 version of Miles, and as much as I'm hoping to see us project upward more, it's still a little too early to make any sweeping judgments yet.

I appreciate what you're saying.  Goodness knows I was among the most optimistic looking ahead from year 2 of Doc.  One crucial difference between where Miles is now and where Doc was then is that year 2 of Doc relied heavily on year 4 of Aleks Maric.  And years 1 and 1 of Ade Dagunduro and Steve Harley.  And, unfortunately, the talent level tapered off significantly after that.

 

It might be true that Miles lucked out with Petteway being as good of a player as he is.  Or maybe Miles is just a better judge of talent.  Or maybe better talent judge AND, even with that, Petteway is just better than even Miles could have hoped or expected. 

 

But Miles has a young and talented team.  He doesn't lose a lot of that talent over the next couple of years absent unforeseen attrition.  At a time when Doc needed to be building momentum (in order to inspire confidence in prospective recruits like Elliot Eliason, Mike Gesell or Adam Woodbury) his teams began to flag.  Miles, on the other hand, managed to land some transfers who: a) supplied talent; and b, supply some built-in maturity (both physical and mental) such that you have to look at our prospects for next year and say that they're better than this year.

 

If Doc had been able to swing a couple of players like Terran and Walt and had a Shavon Shields coming in when he arrived, he might still be our coach.  The caprice of timing.  Oh well.  I just want it to work out for someone coaching here and the sooner the better.  I ain't gettin' any younger.

[HolyBobpilgrimage]

I would say Doc had the better defense overall. But Miles is starting to get a little closer. And what hurt Doc was that it seemed like every year he had like one big time player, and then a couple of ok players who could do their job and get a few points. But with this team, we have two big time scorers and a lot of people who could go off at any moment.

True, very true. I remember coming into this year being excited about our depth.

We have a way to go, but I like the direction we are headed, and we are playing with a chip on our shoulder finally.

Like you said, we have a few big time scorer to depend on, and a bunch of guys with POTENTIAL; not to say that doc didn't have that, but the level of talent we have that we are currently developing, I.e. Nate Hawkins and tai webster, is quite exciting. Can't wait to see how it plays out. I've been hearing a lot that we might have a great year next year and things sure are lining up well for that to happen.

At this point in THIS season, though, we have nothing to lose. So all I expect is the guys to put it all out on the floor and have fun playing. And if we can sneak into the tourney or even be on the bubble (gasp!) I'd be overjoyed.

[Stiltz Guy]

Doc's flaw was his own emotion and lack of offensive understanding. He thought that shoving needed offensive talent on the bench for games at a time was a good way of showing them who's boss. Nevermind that true scorers like Petteway need some leash in order to be true scorers. Petteway would be 1/2 of the player he is under Sadler, mostly due to fear of being benched for a quick shot or aggressive drive that turned into a turnover.

Sadler's own flaws doomed him into failure, and made NU unattractive to even kids in state or Sioux City. I won't mention a certain German lad that had a few offensive skills of his own that Sadler didn't harness, and are now being enjoyed by another program.

Miles doesn't have these flaws, in fact, he is rather liberal with his leash, and scorers are now confident.

[Dean Smith]

Doc's flaw was his own emotion and lack of offensive understanding. He thought that shoving needed offensive talent on the bench for games at a time was a good way of showing them who's boss. Nevermind that true scorers like Petteway need some leash in order to be true scorers. Petteway would be 1/2 of the player he is under Sadler, mostly due to fear of being benched for a quick shot or aggressive drive that turned into a turnover.

Sadler's own flaws doomed him into failure, and made NU unattractive to even kids in state or Sioux City. I won't mention a certain German lad that had a few offensive skills of his own that Sadler didn't harness, and are now being enjoyed by another program.

Miles doesn't have these flaws, in fact, he is rather liberal with his leash, and scorers are now confident.

Have you ever coached a jr. high girls team?