Nebraska's Defense

[basketballjones]

Wanted to see if anyone had any more experience with the type of defense Nebraska has - or has done their research on it?

Why do we force ourselves into rotation situations before we even have to? I truly don't understand it, not saying I disagree with it or think it's wrong, I honestly don't understand it. For example, we double post players - not even in the post - in the short corner, before they have even dribbled, made a move, or shown they can even score in the post. We will also run guys off the line, seemingly by design, without them even being a threat to shoot (or if they're even a shooter to begin with). It seems by design.

 

Do we want to be in scramble/rotation? They're clearly very good and well repped in it. Is the idea that we're going to scramble/rotate on our own accord, before the defense makes us? So kind of an Amoeba style defense (in a way)? This seems to be the most likely explanation. I know versus Creighton last year, we got steal after steal as they seemed unprepared for how we were going to X-out on the backside as they swung/skipped the ball. 

To beat this defense, I would be 5-out and back-cut, back-cut, back-cut, back-cut until my legs fell off. I would also emphasize getting us into our doubles/traps and instantly kicking the ball out and making one more pass, then be on the attack. IMO, you beat our defense from having the ball at the top of the key with your posts, and screening actions in the slot where one's going to perimeter and ones going to the rim - we'll mess up a switch at some point. 

[hhcmatt]

17 minutes ago, basketballjones said:

To beat this defense

 

[Huskerpapa]

I have a somewhat sophomoric view of our defense.  It looks like a combination of man-to-man and zone trapping.  Sort of forces an opposing team to speed up their offense and take a shot when they get an open look.  

It looks different and seems to catch a lot of offenses off guard.  Not sure why.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Huskerpapa

[k3s3i]

it’s a sorta no middle/ force baseline defense 

 

they double the block early to limit post touches, shots at the rim, and force turnovers. the ultimate goal is forcing a midrange shot, hence running them off the line 

 

 

[basketballjones]

10 minutes ago, k3s3i said:

it’s a sorta no middle/ force baseline defense 

 

they double the block early to limit post touches, shots at the rim, and force turnovers. the ultimate goal is forcing a midrange shot, hence running them off the line 

 

 

It's not sort of, it definitely is no middle, force baseline. 

 

It is, at its core, a match-up zone. They're essentially in a 2-3 and they pass off/switch screening actions (hence why I would slip/back-cut everything). But when the ball gets slotted and over, they're full forcing baseline and not allowing middle. They're kind of "icing" everything, in a way. 

 

My biggest beef is why they force themselves into rotations/scrambles before they have to. I think they can accomplish everything they want without doing that - just my opinion. 

[Norm Peterson]

My thought watching it last night was that we were really challenging their posts to pass out of the double team and they weren’t doing a very good job of it so it didn’t really hurt us.

[royalfan]

1 hour ago, basketballjones said:

It's not sort of, it definitely is no middle, force baseline. 

 

It is, at its core, a match-up zone. They're essentially in a 2-3 and they pass off/switch screening actions (hence why I would slip/back-cut everything). But when the ball gets slotted and over, they're full forcing baseline and not allowing middle. They're kind of "icing" everything, in a way. 

 

My biggest beef is why they force themselves into rotations/scrambles before they have to. I think they can accomplish everything they want without doing that - just my opinion. 

While I agree with what you are saying, I think the benefit of always doing it is that everyone is on the same page.  If we try to choose when to or not, they won't always be.  So that is some of the trade off I suppose. 

[Breslin Petteway]

No experience with it, but I like it. We have an identity and guys seem to know where they need to be. The way I see it is there is always someone at the rim to take away layups, and we do our best to run guys off the three point line. That leaves the mid range, the shot all teams are taught to avoid.

 

I think that our biggest issues come from quick skip passes that create long close outs, and giving up open corner threes. Games where we are just a step slow rotating can lead to open threes. If I remember rights B1G teams seemed to have some success with this last year, but when we had Bando, Gary, Sammy G flying around we were deadly. We don't have that length this year obviously, but Sam and Jamarques sure fly around and play great defense. 

 

I think teams make the baseline drive a part of their offense in today's game, and we are often in great position to make steals out of that rotation. I'm no expert, but it's just nice to have an identity on that end of the floor, one I think puts our guys in a pretty good spot to make steals and be aggressive. 

[Jacob Padilla]

1 hour ago, basketballjones said:

It's not sort of, it definitely is no middle, force baseline. 

 

It is, at its core, a match-up zone. They're essentially in a 2-3 and they pass off/switch screening actions (hence why I would slip/back-cut everything). But when the ball gets slotted and over, they're full forcing baseline and not allowing middle. They're kind of "icing" everything, in a way. 

 

My biggest beef is why they force themselves into rotations/scrambles before they have to. I think they can accomplish everything they want without doing that - just my opinion. 

 

I think you've described it pretty well, and I also am not a huge fan of that concept in general. I think where they're coming from is if you look at the roster, there isn't a ton of lateral quickness or strong one-on-one defenders, especially when you're playing 2 or 3 of Tominaga, Williams, Wilcher and Coleman together. They'd probably struggle to stay in front in a more conservative scheme, and I think they'd have a tough time closing out under control to shooters out of traditional help positions. They also don't have a traditional rim protector (like Creighton with Kalkbrenner; they also chase guys off the line and funnel ball-handlers into mid-range shots or to Kalkbrenner at the rim, but they're less hectic in the way they do it because they have a two-time DPOY on the back line). So they try to offset that by flying around and speeding teams up. That works against bad teams and will catch some others off guard, but I think back to the game at Michigan State last year - it seemed like they know exactly what to expect and picked them apart. 

[royalfan]

Good or great passing teams can certainly beat it with quick passes around the horn, especially resulting in tough to get to the corner.  Illinois game at home last year comes to mind.  They really had the ball popping and your rotations just cannot get there when that happens.   All in all though, I love the scheme.  We don't give up very many easy paint points, which I am very fond of, especially since the time they moved the 3 point line back a good bit.  

[thrasher31]

3 hours ago, Jacob Padilla said:

 

I think you've described it pretty well, and I also am not a huge fan of that concept in general. I think where they're coming from is if you look at the roster, there isn't a ton of lateral quickness or strong one-on-one defenders, especially when you're playing 2 or 3 of Tominaga, Williams, Wilcher and Coleman together. They'd probably struggle to stay in front in a more conservative scheme, and I think they'd have a tough time closing out under control to shooters out of traditional help positions. They also don't have a traditional rim protector (like Creighton with Kalkbrenner; they also chase guys off the line and funnel ball-handlers into mid-range shots or to Kalkbrenner at the rim, but they're less hectic in the way they do it because they have a two-time DPOY on the back line). So they try to offset that by flying around and speeding teams up. That works against bad teams and will catch some others off guard, but I think back to the game at Michigan State last year - it seemed like they know exactly what to expect and picked them apart. 

I think the lack of room protection is the biggest factor for running this style like you said. 

 

There's holes to any defense no matter what you run, but you make the defense work for the personnel you have. I don't love the double baseline, but if they are sound in rotations and don't jump on ball fakes (I've seen quite a few of those over the first two games), it could work. 

[busticket]

18 hours ago, Jacob Padilla said:

 

I think you've described it pretty well, and I also am not a huge fan of that concept in general. I think where they're coming from is if you look at the roster, there isn't a ton of lateral quickness or strong one-on-one defenders, especially when you're playing 2 or 3 of Tominaga, Williams, Wilcher and Coleman together. They'd probably struggle to stay in front in a more conservative scheme, and I think they'd have a tough time closing out under control to shooters out of traditional help positions. They also don't have a traditional rim protector (like Creighton with Kalkbrenner; they also chase guys off the line and funnel ball-handlers into mid-range shots or to Kalkbrenner at the rim, but they're less hectic in the way they do it because they have a two-time DPOY on the back line). So they try to offset that by flying around and speeding teams up. That works against bad teams and will catch some others off guard, but I think back to the game at Michigan State last year - it seemed like they know exactly what to expect and picked them apart. 

The one thing I would add is Creighton seems less hectic (back to the OP) because McDermott is okay with guys taking shots they aren’t good at.  If you are a crappy three point shooter, he’ll give you that shot and dare you to make it.  I do like that we force midrange baseline shots but I also agree with letting crappy shooters shoot versus scrambling just because.  I wonder if  our coaches are trying to build the defensive intensity in our kids so they have them going full bore all the time?

[Jacob Padilla]

1 hour ago, busticket said:

The one thing I would add is Creighton seems less hectic (back to the OP) because McDermott is okay with guys taking shots they aren’t good at.  If you are a crappy three point shooter, he’ll give you that shot and dare you to make it.  I do like that we force midrange baseline shots but I also agree with letting crappy shooters shoot versus scrambling just because.  I wonder if  our coaches are trying to build the defensive intensity in our kids so they have them going full bore all the time?

 

Yeah, Creighton is 100% a scouting report defense where each game plan is tailored the opponent based on good shooters and poor ones. Nebraska looks to be playing the same way regardless of opponent. If this is the way they're going to play in conference, it makes sense to just work on it now even if they can win these games playing straight up. Try to get the rotations locked down and make it second nature. 

[Fullbacksympathy]

There are some packline principles at play in this defense with a few differences like forcing baseline as many have pointed out.  Packline (see Virginia) is basically a matchup zone with heavy on-ball closeouts where you force your man into help/bad shots.  

 

The anticipation of rotation is a very good thing.  Most teams--even elite ones--aren't going to have elite passing.  Forcing opponents into the worst shot in basketball (long baseline 2s) is definitely a good ethos.  Running people off threes and into already-rotating help is totally doable and a real PITA if you have smart, hard-working players.  

 

Hoiberg's first few years' rosters wouldn't have dreamed of being able to execute this defense properly.  Now that he has more coachable, hard working kids, the only way to really dismantle them is with coachable, unselfish, hard working kids on the other side, which will be rare.  When you think about last year's group of guys like Bando, Griesel, Gary, etc. they were probably a Top 25 team before injuries.  Absolute dogs on defense.  It certainly looks to me like defense will be non-negotiable moving forward.  I don't see any dropoff.  Offense will sort itself out.  

[Cornbread21]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:20 AM, Jacob Padilla said:

 

Yeah, Creighton is 100% a scouting report defense where each game plan is tailored the opponent based on good shooters and poor ones. Nebraska looks to be playing the same way regardless of opponent. If this is the way they're going to play in conference, it makes sense to just work on it now even if they can win these games playing straight up. Try to get the rotations locked down and make it second nature. 

@Jacob Padilla Off topic but is there anywhere to access the husker player profiles you did for Hail Varsity? I found those super intriguing, and you were able to use clips from Second Spectrum that many don’t have access to. I was going to look back at some of those because they were super informative. 

[Norm Peterson]

We double the post and chase shooters off the 3-point line. All that adds up to being one of the nation's leaders in 2pt% defense. Yay us.

 

Maybe Wisconsin should follow suit.

 

 

[Jacob Padilla]

16 hours ago, Cornbread21 said:

@Jacob Padilla Off topic but is there anywhere to access the husker player profiles you did for Hail Varsity? I found those super intriguing, and you were able to use clips from Second Spectrum that many don’t have access to. I was going to look back at some of those because they were super informative. 

Unfortunately, with the changes at work and Hail Varsity content being incorporated into the Hurrdat Sports website, the old HV site is gone and they didn't bring the full archives over to the new site. I believe I still have the text and the clips saved, so I could theoretically republish so they still exist, but I haven't gotten around to doing so.

[basketballjones]

On 11/15/2023 at 9:41 AM, Norm Peterson said:

We double the post and chase shooters off the 3-point line. All that adds up to being one of the nation's leaders in 2pt% defense. Yay us.

 

Maybe Wisconsin should follow suit.

 

 

All I see there is we're literally playing one of the softest non-con schedules in the nation and we're stopping those teams from scoring 2's, lol. 

Defense did not look very good running 3pt shooters off the line last night. 

[Cornbread21]

1 hour ago, Jacob Padilla said:

Unfortunately, with the changes at work and Hail Varsity content being incorporated into the Hurrdat Sports website, the old HV site is gone and they didn't bring the full archives over to the new site. I believe I still have the text and the clips saved, so I could theoretically republish so they still exist, but I haven't gotten around to doing so.

That's too bad. I'd selfishly love to see those republished in some capacity to see what the numbers say about our guys and also look at their progression through the year from before the season.

[basketballjones]

Fwiw I fully understand this defense and was kind of being a troll here.

 

This defense is a “junk” defense. Junk, not defined as saying it’s “bad,” but junk defined as by saying it’s not a normal, straight-up, defense (true man, or true zone). It’s like playing a box and 1, or triangle and 2, etc… those things are defined as a “junk” defense. 
 

To be completely honest, I am so tired of watching it. It requires absolutely perfect communication and perfect execution to beat nearly any common or better opponent. If you don’t have “it,” you’re gonna probably lose to people you shouldn’t. And there’s a major drop off on the road without your crowd energy. 
 

Your best defense has and always will be deliberately dictating your offensive tempo and shot selection. Those two things will always do more for your defense than what you’re actually running on defense. It’s time for Coach Hoiberg to be more adamant about their shot selection, and more importantly, who’s taking those shots. 

[Fullbacksympathy]

On 1/13/2024 at 2:09 PM, basketballjones said:

Fwiw I fully understand this defense and was kind of being a troll here.

 

This defense is a “junk” defense. Junk, not defined as saying it’s “bad,” but junk defined as by saying it’s not a normal, straight-up, defense (true man, or true zone). It’s like playing a box and 1, or triangle and 2, etc… those things are defined as a “junk” defense. 
 

To be completely honest, I am so tired of watching it. It requires absolutely perfect communication and perfect execution to beat nearly any common or better opponent. If you don’t have “it,” you’re gonna probably lose to people you shouldn’t. And there’s a major drop off on the road without your crowd energy. 
 

Your best defense has and always will be deliberately dictating your offensive tempo and shot selection. Those two things will always do more for your defense than what you’re actually running on defense. It’s time for Coach Hoiberg to be more adamant about their shot selection, and more importantly, who’s taking those shots. 

Man.  I think you worded this articulately but there’s no way I’d change our defensive philosophy from the last two seasons. 
 

Teaching good m2m is about 75% help rotation, regardless of how extreme the help is.  We’ve beaten two top 10 teams in the last two seasons with this sort of defense.  I think it’s mostly awesome.  It’s definitely a variant of m2m.  Every m2m worth its salt has one on ball and four in zone after every pass.  This version has extreme help in rotation.  I agree with you that it’s difficult to sustain but it sure is a thing of beauty when it’s done right.  I also agree about offensive tempo and intention.  
 

But I’m not sick of this defensive philosophy at all.  I love watching it. 

[Chuck Taylor]

Fwiw, our offense is 28 in KenPom, our defense 95.

[hhcmatt]

Overall vs Conference only

The big takeaway is that we're getting torched from 3 and sort of torched from 2.

For the most part our offense is solid and does well enough to win a lot of games.

 

 

 

 e

 

 

 

[Red Don]

1 hour ago, hhcmatt said:

Overall vs Conference only

The big takeaway is that we're getting torched from 3 and sort of torched from 2.

For the most part our offense is solid and does well enough to win a lot of games.

 Ergo, isn't that Nebraska BB the past few years in the Big Ten??

 

As MichHusker said in another thread:

 

[hhcmatt]

4 minutes ago, Red Don said:

Ergo, isn't that Nebraska BB the past few years in the Big Ten??

 

the last couple of years teams were hitting 34-36% against us. I think the 42% currently against us is a bit fluky with a chance to go down but it is what it is right now.