Does anyone hear that hissing sound?

[atskooc]

To answer your question, yes, I think it's theoretically possible for a coach with superior talent to outcoach a coach with inferior talent in what turns out to be a close game on the road.

 

I don't think that's what happened Wednesday night, however.

 

I think some people reflexively blame "coaching" for losses when they don't really know or understand the whys and hows of what happens in a game.  They've heard the phrase "being outcoached" and so they throw the vague "he got outcoached" terminology out there when they don't know how to articulate their frustration at losing in any other way.

 

Assume for a moment that I didn't see the game and didn't listen to it and that all I know is that a team with superior talent won by 5 on the road.  The most obvious explanation for why the team with superior talent won would be their superior talent and not their coaching, no?

 

I haven't seen anyone state with any specificity exactly how they think Miles' coaching against Indiana was deficient or how Crean "outcoached" Miles, other than in Miles' obvious failure to educate his players on using the backboard when attempting a layup.  Nevermind that I have personally heard clips posted on this very website where Miles has instructed his players to go high off the glass.  So, not sure that's a legitimate criticism.

 

But I did see the game.  And I didn't personally witness this "outcoaching" that Crean supposedly did.  What I saw was weaknesses of our roster being exploited by strengths of theirs. 

 

Unless someone cares to explain with any sort of particulars -- beyond a knee-jerk reaction -- what the outcoaching consisted of.  I didn't see it.

 

My rubric, by the way, is:  I'll tell you if I see it.  And I didn't see it.

That makes much more sense.

 

Thanks, Norm!

[Norm Peterson]

 

Hoops Legend thinks Tim Miles got out-coached by Tom Crean on Wednesday.

Let me put some perspective on this:

PG -- *** got outcoached by PG -- *****

SG -- ***                   SG -- *****

SF -- ***                   SF -- ****

PF -- ***                   PF -- ****

C  -- ***                   C  -- ****

I don't think I'd give Crean that much of the credit.

If it's that simple, I guess it is a lock that Miles was outcoached by the Incarnate Word dude?

 

Yeah, that one's probably on Miles.  Seems we had a long discussion on his use of timeouts in that game already.  Like back in the post-game chatter thread for that game.

[Norm Peterson]

My continuing frustration on this season has been that, while our offense is generating open looks, the guys who wind up in a position to take those shots turn them down and pass it back to Petteway 9 times out of 10.  There is 100% chance that the shot you don't take won't go in.  It absolutely won't go in if you don't shoot it.  Indiana had 7 guys willing to do something with the ball if it was in their hands.  We had three. 

 

That's all we've had all season long.  You practically have to beg those other guys to take shots.  They get the kick-out in the corner in rhythm and won't take the shot.  The offense did it's job.  It got them the open look.  But if they don't take it ...

 

And when Pitchford is sitting in the first half with two fouls and you have 6'7" David Rivers in there getting owned on the glass by a 6'10" 4-star recruit of theirs, that's a match-up you aren't going to win too often.  I don't care if it's Kidney coaching in that situation.  David Rivers and Nick Fuller are not going to pull down too many boards against Mascara-Perrerra or whatever his name was.

 

When people try to give Crean credit for coaching a 6'10" 4-star center to go in there and out-rebound a 6'7" 3-star stretch 4 playing the 5, I think of the episode from the Simpsons where Mr. Burns decides to coach the company softball team and he brings in Darryl Strawberry as a ringer and he tells Strawberry to go in and hit a home run, which Strawberry does.  And Burns then turns to Smithers and says, "I told him to do that" and Smithers responds "Brilliant strategy, sir."

 

Yeah, that was "coaching."

[NUdiehard]

 

 

 

 

Yep, we're just rolling in talent.  That's why Crean chose  not to guard 2 or 3 talented players every time we had the ball.   I don't see how not having guys who can shoot should remotely affect our offensive production.  Any decent coach should be able to get around that problem....

 

HB, I agree with you in many respects.  There is no doubt NU still has some major deficiencies.  However, I am not completely convinced those "deficient" players are quite as "deficient" as they have been performing (at least on the offensive end).  I started another thread on this issue, but is Benny such a terrible shooter that other coaches shouldn't have to guard him at all?  I mean this in all sincerity.  BP is shooting 42% on 3s for the year, yet I watched him completely pass up open shot after open shot in that Indiana game.  Is that 100% a lack of "talent" on BP's end, or is there some issue with him feeling that his "role" on the team is to not shoot and to only play defense.  If BP feels that defense is his only role, then where did that feeling come from?  I would imagine that how he is coached day after day after day plays in to that in some respect. 

 

I am a huge Miles guy and support him 100%, and I am very confident he is bring in better talent (which we definitely need) and that he will get it done in the end.  But that doesn't mean there aren't times I am left scratching my head.  I think it is OK to raise questions at times, it doesn't mean we aren't supporting the team or the coach. 

 

This may be just me, but at this point, based on all I have seen, I would rather have BP shooting a wide-open uncontested shot than TP or SS shooting an off-balance contested 25 footer.  The role players must feel like they are an integral part of the offensive game plan as well as the defensive end.  That doesn't mean they have to shoot 15-20 times, but when they are open they need to let it fly IMO.

[jimmykc]

This thread is worthwhile just to see the word rubric used in two posts. And , by the way, did you know he invented the cube?

[49r]

 

 

 

I understand, no I'm not bailing on the team.  At some point, realism sets in, I just am not impressed AT ALL with what I see on the court...players and coaches.  Tom Crean outcoached us big time last night, Greg McDermott out coached us big time a month ago, I can't pretend to see progress or a realistic reason for NCAA tourney action.

 

Can you?  Be honest.

No, I don't see a realistic reason for NCAA tourney action for our team or yours.  Yeah, you guys beat us, and congrats on that, but it must be small comfort to you after losing three of your last 4, most recently an 8 point drubbing at Providence.  And, let's be honest, Providence isn't exactly the Indiana Hoosiers.

 

By the way, you better hope you can get DePaul at home; otherwise, you face a good chance of going 0-for January in conference play.  That hissing sound might be the 4 tires on your bus.

 

 

In fairness, Norm, and I'm certainly not calling you out here because this is a pretty troll-ish thread, but Coach Miles admitted himself after the Creighton game that he was out-coached and put the loss on his own shoulders.

 

That he was out-coached by Crean is certainly up for debate and a matter of opinion, but seeing how Miles is 2-2 against Crean at Nebraska, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

 

Did you intend to quote this post or were you intending to quote a different post of mine in this thread?  I didn't say anything at all about Miles being outcoached or not outcoached by Doug McDermott's dad.  Not in this post or any other in this thread.  The only one where I mentioned a claim of Miles being outcoached was with respect to the claim that he was outcoached by Crean.  But that was in a different post, not this one.

 

 

Well I did say I wasn't calling you out, Norm!  

 

My only point is I think maybe we're coming down awful hard on the newbie right away.  Of course, as you know, I'm one of the last people to decide whether or not a new poster is a troll.  I'm still on the fence on this one.

[Norm Peterson]

NUdiehard makes a good point. I don't know how Miles relates to his players. If he seems to have favorites and some guys get away with missing bad shots while others get ripped for missing good ones, that could affect things, it would certainly be on the coaching, but I don't know if that's happening or not. But that's also not in-game coaching.

[Silverbacked1]

This thread is worthwhile just to see the word rubric used in two posts. And , by the way, did you know he invented the cube?

Some guys named Walt?

[a0t0w0]

That's the air officially coming out of our NCAA tourney bubble like a gash on the sidewall of a flat tire.

 

Really disappointing.

 

Oh, I thought it was just your mom's cat as I snuck out the back door...

 

ZING.

[jimmykc]

Silver, now that you bring up my Walts, no one has yet nailed the present one and he will remain until someone does. And cip has now blamed me for this years results because I have messed with Pitchford's mind with my onslaught of Walts. Are you buying into that? Because I still have a full deck of Walts to go and I don't feel our own Walt is doing that badly now.

[jimmykc]

P.S. I've already given a bunch of hints in a previous thread and this Walt is too bland to keep the rest of the year. So someone , knock on wood, should be able to get him (that was another hint).

[hskr4life]

I understand, no I'm not bailing on the team.  At some point, realism sets in, I just am not impressed AT ALL with what I see on the court...players and coaches.  Tom Crean outcoached us big time last night, Greg McDermott out coached us big time a month ago, I can't pretend to see progress or a realistic reason for NCAA tourney action.

 

Can you?  Be honest.

 

Do you realize that you have brought up Creighton, the Creighton loss, or something Creighton in just about every negative post you have made so far?  (Most all of your posts have been negative though).  So far I have not seen anything to make me believe that you are actually a fan of "all things Husker."

[49r]

P.S. I've already given a bunch of hints in a previous thread and this Walt is too bland to keep the rest of the year. So someone , knock on wood, should be able to get him (that was another hint).

 

Okay, jimmy, I'll take this one.

 

 

I wonder if he's any relation to our own Stu Lantz?  

[jimmykc]

They are probably distant relatives. I actually remember watching my Walter having some sort of show on our old antenna family tv in my youth. Let's just say as a tv personality he was not particularly charming. At least now we won't be stuck with him for the remainder of the Year of the Walter.

[president dead]

 

 

 

I understand, no I'm not bailing on the team.  At some point, realism sets in, I just am not impressed AT ALL with what I see on the court...players and coaches.  Tom Crean outcoached us big time last night, Greg McDermott out coached us big time a month ago, I can't pretend to see progress or a realistic reason for NCAA tourney action.

 

Can you?  Be honest.

No, I don't see a realistic reason for NCAA tourney action for our team or yours.  Yeah, you guys beat us, and congrats on that, but it must be small comfort to you after losing three of your last 4, most recently an 8 point drubbing at Providence.  And, let's be honest, Providence isn't exactly the Indiana Hoosiers.

 

By the way, you better hope you can get DePaul at home; otherwise, you face a good chance of going 0-for January in conference play.  That hissing sound might be the 4 tires on your bus.

 

 

In fairness, Norm, and I'm certainly not calling you out here because this is a pretty troll-ish thread, but Coach Miles admitted himself after the Creighton game that he was out-coached and put the loss on his own shoulders.

 

That he was out-coached by Crean is certainly up for debate and a matter of opinion, but seeing how Miles is 2-2 against Crean at Nebraska, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

 

Did you intend to quote this post or were you intending to quote a different post of mine in this thread?  I didn't say anything at all about Miles being outcoached or not outcoached by Doug McDermott's dad.  Not in this post or any other in this thread.  The only one where I mentioned a claim of Miles being outcoached was with respect to the claim that he was outcoached by Crean.  But that was in a different post, not this one.

 

 

Norm,

 

So as a follow up to you point and comment that you didn't say or not say Miles was outcoached by McDermott....so I'll ask.  In your opinion did McDermott outcoach Miles or not?  What do you think?

 

In terms of specific coaching points that I have seen us under coached on:

1)  When zone pressing, NEVER let the ball in the middle of the court.  Seen it way too many times this year.  Fundamental.

2)  I would be running pressure man on Indiana's guards, and sagging middle on any weakside pass.  We do a terrible job of fronting the middle flash in both man and zone, this is easy to coach, but you gotta be able to ID the need.

3)  Yes, our turnover problem can be coached out.

4)  If you have a player on the court that need not be guarded, you can't play him at this level.  Benny should be receiving 10min a game if he can't score unguarded.

[Dean Smith]

 

 

 

 

I understand, no I'm not bailing on the team.  At some point, realism sets in, I just am not impressed AT ALL with what I see on the court...players and coaches.  Tom Crean outcoached us big time last night, Greg McDermott out coached us big time a month ago, I can't pretend to see progress or a realistic reason for NCAA tourney action.

 

Can you?  Be honest.

No, I don't see a realistic reason for NCAA tourney action for our team or yours.  Yeah, you guys beat us, and congrats on that, but it must be small comfort to you after losing three of your last 4, most recently an 8 point drubbing at Providence.  And, let's be honest, Providence isn't exactly the Indiana Hoosiers.

 

By the way, you better hope you can get DePaul at home; otherwise, you face a good chance of going 0-for January in conference play.  That hissing sound might be the 4 tires on your bus.

 

 

In fairness, Norm, and I'm certainly not calling you out here because this is a pretty troll-ish thread, but Coach Miles admitted himself after the Creighton game that he was out-coached and put the loss on his own shoulders.

 

That he was out-coached by Crean is certainly up for debate and a matter of opinion, but seeing how Miles is 2-2 against Crean at Nebraska, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

 

Did you intend to quote this post or were you intending to quote a different post of mine in this thread?  I didn't say anything at all about Miles being outcoached or not outcoached by Doug McDermott's dad.  Not in this post or any other in this thread.  The only one where I mentioned a claim of Miles being outcoached was with respect to the claim that he was outcoached by Crean.  But that was in a different post, not this one.

 

 

Norm,

 

So as a follow up to you point and comment that you didn't say or not say Miles was outcoached by McDermott....so I'll ask.  In your opinion did McDermott outcoach Miles or not?  What do you think?

 

In terms of specific coaching points that I have seen us under coached on:

1)  When zone pressing, NEVER let the ball in the middle of the court.  Unless you're running Rick Pitino's press and then you just rotate from the box into a diamond. Seen it way too many times this year.  Fundamental. 

2)  I would be running pressure man on Indiana's guards Just when they have the ball or all the time. You can't pressure the guards off ball and run the packline defense and if you just mean when they have the ball, that's what they were doing., and sagging middle on any weakside pass.  We do a terrible job of fronting the middle flash It may just be your phrasing, but I'm not sure how you front a cut, you can step up and hit them with an armbar denying the cut but I'm not sure how you stand in front of a cutting man. in both man and zone, this is easy to coach Not being sarcastic really, how do you easily coach taking away flash cuts which is what I think you are saying but not 100% sure., but you gotta be able to ID the need.

3)  Yes, our turnover problem can be coached out. Number one problem of every offense on the planet is being able to ONLY throw the ball to people on your team. If you can coach out turnovers I think you might be on to something. You can work to cut down turnovers but if you can coach them out you should be getting paid very well someplace.

4)  If you have a player on the court that need not be guarded, you can't play him at this level.  Benny should be receiving 10min a game if he can't score unguarded. I think in this situation, Benny has done a nice job of making himself more of a threat on the floor from last year. I'll admit that usually it is not the point guard, but there are NBA players that teams sag off of on offense. Whether he can score or not unguarded is another debate, but I think Benny definitely needs to play more than 10 minutes a game.

 

btw - I missed nustudents multicolor responses and just thought I would throw one in for old time sakes. 

 

[hhcmatt]

Can't wait for the pep talk if we drop the next one vs Iowa

[HB]

So Mr. Dead Troll guy:  If we bench all the guys who don't have to be guarded, Who do you put in?  Please be specific about who takes over 25 minutes for Benny. 

 

P.S.  Menke loves you

[royalfan]

 

 

Look, I and you saw an NCAA tourney team last year....returning virtually 90% of its scoring.  We haven't stepped up our game one bit, in fact, we've stepped it back.  Intelligent fans don't have to be blind ones, and vice-versa.  My opinion was sweet 16ish pre-season, not expecting to see such poor execution and a lack of ball dicipline.

 

I believe the evidence is showing that Miles isn't a guy that is going to out scheme anyone, he's a guy requiring superior talent, and I hope his talent is to pull that in.  

 

Explain how a well coached team loses AT HOME to Creighton and Incarnate Word??

 

Did you expect to see injuries to Leslee and Moses?  Because as I see it, that's more of a factor than the lack of execution so far.

 

No, I think he expected to see more out of Leon Gilmore and Ricky Kreklow and is pissed at how his own team's NCAA tourney hopes are evaporating and so, to make himself feel better, signed up over here and figured he'd come rub our noses in a loss.

 

Exactly what this clown is doing.  Incredibly pathetic effort of not being obvious.  Dumbing the entire Creighton fanbase down in the process. This has shades of Double Douche written all over it. 

[Silverbacked1]

Peru played the last 2:15 of their game today with only 3 players on the court.

[CrazyforNUHOOPS]

Again, last season after one conference game, 8-5. This season after one conference game, 8-5. Why would there be any hissing noise yet? They get Old Testament and Leslee back soon and will have a better conference season than last year. Take it to the bank!

[49r]

Peru played the last 2:15 of their game today with only 3 players on the court.

 

Did they win?

[Silverbacked1]

Lost by 7 points, won by 15 the night before while playing only 4 the last 9min. Actually stretched the lead by 4. Friday's game only suited up 8 and had 4 tossed for coming off the bench in a dust up on the court. 2 of the 4 where allowed to suit up so they could field a team. 3 fouled out and of the ones still on the court 2 had 4 fouls and the other one had 3. Something like 95 fouls called in the game. it was ugly. My son goes to Peru and doesn't know why they only suited up 8. Started the year with 13-15. Something happened during winter break, will find out and share ifI can.

[lanigan123]

Look, as a coach you can't fix not having talent to turn the corner in season. You sure as hell can pull your best player at that point. Now that being said, Nebraska is really struggling when pressed, there is no reason that hasn't been addressed.

[hhcmatt]

This is activeboard classic

 

 

It's essentially the same guy who makes win or else posts featuring "Kenneth Sadler" and "Tom Osburn" and THIS IS WHAT A WINNING COACH WOULD DO who manages to get enough negative feedback that I boot him every single year. I've seen it enough times it took one post.  Every year the same guys have the same responses.  I make fun of him. People accuse him of being a Creighton troll.  Some take him seriously.  Some don't.