Something ain't right

[Hooper]

I don't think what Petteway did was nearly as big a surprise to the staff, who had known the kid for quite some time, as he was to all of us.

 

They loved him ever since he was a high school player and they saw him playing AAU ball in Galveston. Yes, that's absolutely true. That's why they welcomed him as a transfer without even a second thought. Does that mean, when he signed his scholarship papers, that they envisioned him leading the B1G in scoring in his first season or being as incredibly dominant as he's been? I would say no way in hell.

[Norm Peterson]

 

Hooper, I agree with this.  I would say that we still have to make believers out of guys who don't yet perceive us as being a program that can get it done.  It's a lost cause with guys who've been around and already made their minds up, i.e., graduate transfers.  But it's a battle we can still win with high school underclassmen.  And I think the key is we have to make the tournament next year and make some noise when we get there.  Until then, we're still just a program that's never won in the NCAA tourney, albeit one with a great arena and a really cool coach.

But there also a team that actually did make it to the NCAA tournament. That stigma is gone and that might have been the biggest hurdle of them all. No doubt they gotta build off this year and if they fall flat next year (which is a possibility) they might be back to square one, but the pitch changes now that they did make it to the dance.

 

It does a little bit but it's when we make our run, win that first game, that we can truly say, "we've arrived and you can come play for a winner if you come play for us."  I think you'd still encounter some buyer's resistance if you tried to play that card too hard right now.

[uneblinstu]

 

I don't think what Petteway did was nearly as big a surprise to the staff, who had known the kid for quite some time, as he was to all of us.

 

They loved him ever since he was a high school player and they saw him playing AAU ball in Galveston. Yes, that's absolutely true. That's why they welcomed him as a transfer without even a second thought. Does that mean, when he signed his scholarship papers, that they envisioned him leading the B1G in scoring in his first season or being as incredibly dominant as he's been? I would say no way in hell.

 

I think they absolutely thought they could be an impact player in the Big Ten. I have no doubt about that. I don't think that caught them off guard at all. Did he exceed their expectations? Probably, but not by as much as all of us here, not even close. They had a good idea what they had.

[uneblinstu]

 

 

Hooper, I agree with this.  I would say that we still have to make believers out of guys who don't yet perceive us as being a program that can get it done.  It's a lost cause with guys who've been around and already made their minds up, i.e., graduate transfers.  But it's a battle we can still win with high school underclassmen.  And I think the key is we have to make the tournament next year and make some noise when we get there.  Until then, we're still just a program that's never won in the NCAA tourney, albeit one with a great arena and a really cool coach.

But there also a team that actually did make it to the NCAA tournament. That stigma is gone and that might have been the biggest hurdle of them all. No doubt they gotta build off this year and if they fall flat next year (which is a possibility) they might be back to square one, but the pitch changes now that they did make it to the dance.

 

It does a little bit but it's when we make our run, win that first game, that we can truly say, "we've arrived and you can come play for a winner if you come play for us."  I think you'd still encounter some buyer's resistance if you tried to play that card too hard right now.

 

I'm sure there is. But they're not dealing with a hypothetical "we're just a player away" situation anymore. They can say "We just finished 11-7 in the best conference in the country" and "We finished 4th in that conference ahead of Ohio St. and Indiana" and "We actually made the tournament". Those are concrete things. It's easier to see a reality than it is to sell a possibility. We've got realities to sell that we haven't had in a long time.

[Hooper]

 

 

I don't think what Petteway did was nearly as big a surprise to the staff, who had known the kid for quite some time, as he was to all of us.

 

They loved him ever since he was a high school player and they saw him playing AAU ball in Galveston. Yes, that's absolutely true. That's why they welcomed him as a transfer without even a second thought. Does that mean, when he signed his scholarship papers, that they envisioned him leading the B1G in scoring in his first season or being as incredibly dominant as he's been? I would say no way in hell.

 

I think they absolutely thought they could be an impact player in the Big Ten. I have no doubt about that. I don't think that caught them off guard at all. Did he exceed their expectations? Probably, but not by as much as all of us here, not even close. They had a good idea what they had.

 

 

I wouldn't argue that point. If most of us here perceived him as maybe a 4 or 5 on a 1-10 scale, they probably viewed him as a 7+. In reality, he was probably a 9 in his very first season. The guy exceeded everyone's expectations, though I agree with your point that the gap in perception between expectation and reality was probably higher among fans than it was for the staff. I don't doubt that they felt he could develop into an impact player in the B1G. However, I believe we both would agree that the rapid pace of his development and the heights he's achieved exceeded even the staff's expectations. My bet is that they hoped he MIGHT become this good by his senior season, and probably never thought they'd have the B1G's leading scorer. 

[ajb5856]

Still amazes me how many people do not understand recruiting in basketball.

However, this is about more than just relationship building over time. What about the transfer market, and especially the grad transfer market? That has absolutely nothing to do with long-term relationship building. It's about convincing guys, some of whom have only one year of on-court eligibility left, that Nebraska is a place where they can take their talents, experience success and play in the tournament. That really has very little to do with the type of long-term relationship building with high school players that you're talking about.

We got Ayegba as a senior transfer in part because of Hunter's prior relationship with him from Georgetown. We got Petteway as a transfer because Miles and his staff built a relationship while recruiting him to Colorado State. Not always, but a lot of times transfers look at places because they know a coach from a previous stop or because that coach tried to recruit him to another school. There's usually some connection.

[Hooper]

 

 

Still amazes me how many people do not understand recruiting in basketball.

However, this is about more than just relationship building over time. What about the transfer market, and especially the grad transfer market? That has absolutely nothing to do with long-term relationship building. It's about convincing guys, some of whom have only one year of on-court eligibility left, that Nebraska is a place where they can take their talents, experience success and play in the tournament. That really has very little to do with the type of long-term relationship building with high school players that you're talking about.

 

We got Ayegba as a senior transfer in part because of Hunter's prior relationship with him from Georgetown. We got Petteway as a transfer because Miles and his staff built a relationship while recruiting him to Colorado State. Not always, but a lot of times transfers look at places because they know a coach from a previous stop or because that coach tried to recruit him to another school. There's usually some connection.

 

 

Agreed, but our long-term success will depend mostly on being able to have success recruiting the players with whom we don't have special connections, because that pool of players is far larger.

[Cazzie22]

Here's how I view it (and I hope I don't come off sounding too defensive when I say it), but basketball recruiting at Nebraska is a tougher deal than I think a lot of us probably thought.

 

Seemed like Danny Nee was able to bring in high caliber recruits, which proved it could be done, right?  Well, but, Danny Nee had some built-in advantages that maybe made him look like a better recruiter than he really was.  First, he hit the jackpot with a bunch of Omaha kids who were legit.  Second, he was able to leverage Prop 48 to our advantage so that we could land guys like Tyron Lue and Larry Florence and Jamar Johnson.  And probably others as well. 

 

The reason we got in on Lue was because other schools assumed he wouldn't qualify academically.  So, we take a flyer on a kid and offer him as a Prop 48 even though that would mean he'd lose a year of eligibility and have to sit out his freshman year.  Enough of a detriment for the big boys to back off but not enough of a detriment for us to back off.  And, as a result, we land Lue.  Because we offered him and we stuck with him so that when the Big Boys came calling, he had some loyalty and repaid us for sticking with him.

 

OK, but Prop 48 went away.  And so did that leverage.  And you can see in some of Danny's later classes that he was taking reaches.  Lief Ericson, Chad Ideus, Andy Markowski and Chris Sallee composed an entire recruiting class, if I'm not mistaken.  And Danny tried to sell us on the idea that those guys were all top 100 players.  Ahem, not quite.  Not even close.  Only Markowski had much of a career here and he probably got every ounce of potential developed that was there to develop.  So, later in Danny's tenure, recruiting started to flag a bit.  But people still believed that Danny's example showed that you could recruit to a place like Nebraska.

 

Then Collier comes along.  And he has this dry personality and he doesn't recruit well and people assume it's only because he has a dry personality and just isn't a good recruiter.  And that's probably part true.  But even when he brings a guy like Scott Spinelli on board to land all these 3-star players, they end up being marginal 3-stars except for Aleks Maric, Joe McCray and two kids from Nebraska, who I think might actually have pre-dated Spinelli.  I think under Collier, the myth of Danny Nee as this great recruiter blossomed.  And I think there were those people -- certainly me among them -- who believed that changing coaches was all it would take to get a good recruiter on board.

 

Enter Doc.  Doc had a significantly more engaging personality than Collier.  I think many of us -- including me -- expected he'd be a  much better recruiter than Collier.  And it turned out he really wasn't much better.  If he was better at all at recruiting.  He certainly made some mistakes in terms of roster turnover and not keeping kids around to develop them (a mistake also made by Collier, by the way.)  But in terms of what he brought in on the ground floor, I guess I don't recall him winning many recruiting battles with conference mates for players who ended up being any good.  We beat Okie State out for the services of Shang Ping.  Yay us, right? 

 

The failure to upgrade recruiting I think was ultimately Doc's downfall here.  And then we landed Tim Miles.  Now, we've all seen Miles in action.  We're familiar with the kind of personality he possesses.  I would suggest that, all things being equal, you'd be hard pressed to find a dozen more immediately likable personalities in D1 basketball.  Which should be gangbusters for recruiting.  He's going after good to great players.  He's making inroads.  But, at the end of the recruiting cycle, we still aren't landing the top players we've targeted and maybe aren't signing guys who are any better than the players we got under Collier or Doc.

 

So, there must be something else.  Because I think as far as Coach-as-recruiter is concerned, Miles is as good as anyone could hope for him to be.  But it's not translating into signed LOIs.  And I don't think you can pin it on "well, he's only been here two years and it takes longer to establish relationships."  I simply think it's going to take some time -- and, more importantly, some winning -- for prospective recruits to believe that they can come to Lincoln and play for a winner.  Miles says "don't put that crap on me" about our historic struggles, but it's still there and he has to somehow overcome the perception than you can't win in Lincoln. 

 

I think if he does that, if we improve on our record from last year, for example, then you'll gradually start seeing a higher level of kid begin to believe and be willing to sign.  Until then, I think we're going to have to win with Doc-level talent.

 

But I could be wrong.

 

(And people should feel free to disagree with me.       )

Lief Ericson??? Didn't he sail to North America in 1000?  That's my only recollection of him.

[ajb5856]

Still amazes me how many people do not understand recruiting in basketball.

However, this is about more than just relationship building over time. What about the transfer market, and especially the grad transfer market? That has absolutely nothing to do with long-term relationship building. It's about convincing guys, some of whom have only one year of on-court eligibility left, that Nebraska is a place where they can take their talents, experience success and play in the tournament. That really has very little to do with the type of long-term relationship building with high school players that you're talking about.

We got Ayegba as a senior transfer in part because of Hunter's prior relationship with him from Georgetown. We got Petteway as a transfer because Miles and his staff built a relationship while recruiting him to Colorado State. Not always, but a lot of times transfers look at places because they know a coach from a previous stop or because that coach tried to recruit him to another school. There's usually some connection.

Agreed, but our long-term success will depend mostly on being able to have success recruiting the players with whom we don't have special connections, because that pool of players is far larger.

Agreed. Right now it's obviously easier to get our foot in the door with guys we have some connection to in order to build. But as this thing takes off we should be more apt to pull a guy based on what the program is than needing an 'in'.

[Cookie Belcher]

Really enjoying the discussion in this topic. Good stuff guys.

[Daledangdarn]

 

 

Still amazes me how many people do not understand recruiting in basketball.

 

It still amazes me people are actually complaining about Miles. 

 

Most of the people I see complaining about him are bandwagon fans that just started following Nebraska basketball this season, so I try not to take their opinions as anything other than uninformed.

 

Both of your replies may be directed at someone else, maybe it was mine.  I think if you read through my response again, you will see I wasn't "complaining" about Miles.  Not in the least.  Just suggesting that recruiting here is tough, and that it's my opinion we haven't established ourselves as a permanent fixture in the upper division of the Big Ten just yet given who we have signed the last 12 months.

Kamdy, if you are directing your comment at me that I don't understand recruiting - I'm guilty as charged.  Just sharing my perception of what has transpired the last year.  Who knows.  I could be completely off base and we might have just signed two all-Big-Ten players this past year.  Time will tell.

 

 

No it wasn't directed at you. 

[bobcat402]

 

 

ill attempt to, it takes multiple years to get in on basketball recruits, and multiple year to build relationships with the true top 150 player, your not going to come in and recruit a top 150 player out of the blue his senior year or even junior year your already to late, Miles' first class that he will have built these necessary relationships with will be in 2015 and beyond. No matter how good we were this past season, its not going to change the minds of 2014 recruits we need to prove over multiple years were the real deal not just a flash, remember we are recruiting against bluebloods for these top recruits to nail these top recruits we almost have to pitch a perfect game, and still hope for a few things to go right, the allure of duke, kansas, texas, kentucky, uconn, arizona,florida, unc, and others will always be greater than ours, we just have to strike and find one kid who dosnt care about all their traditions, and media hype those kids are hard to find...i recruiting strategy for this year is just fine, add to what we have, go after a kid or two or decommits hope they come to us, get a grad transfer, and put all the chips in 2015, 2016 and beyond. 

 

 

So what you are saying is that in 15, 16, and 17 we should see the results of 3 and 4 year relationships?  So if we get in early on a guy and scout him well and he ends up developing into a top 50 player we should have a leg up, right?

 

yes, now dont go quote me on saying we gonna get all these guys, but ill trust Miles charisma, recruiting skill, and our facilities to win a few battles soon. We will always lose out on more top 50, 100 guys than we will ever sign, its a matter of getting one or two a recruiting cycle, and finishing out the cycle with quality players, that mesh with the top tier players skill sets. 

[TheKamdyMan]

 

Still amazes me how many people do not understand recruiting in basketball.

 

Kamdy, I respect the hell out of you and believe you have a better overall understanding of both the game of basketball and basketball recruiting than I do. However, this is about more than just relationship building over time. What about the transfer market, and especially the grad transfer market? That has absolutely nothing to do with long-term relationship building. It's about convincing guys, some of whom have only one year of on-court eligibility left, that Nebraska is a place where they can take their talents, experience success and play in the tournament. That really has very little to do with the type of long-term relationship building with high school players that you're talking about.

 

This year, we were simply unable to parlay our momentum into real success in the transfer market. Now, I know we're a Johnny-come-lately type of program right now without an established history of success, but when I look at the type of transfer Creighton is bringing in, for example, relative to what we're doing, it's really disheartening to me.

 

I was personally hoping to see a greater degree of success in courting transfers in the 2014 late period, and especially grad transfers. I felt that some talented transfers would see what we're building, the conference we play in, the success we had last year and the type of team we have coming back, and want to be a part of it. I was wrong.

 

 

Transfers, especially one year guys, want to play and play now.  Tell me what guy, from the outside, sees themselves playing over Walt, Terran, or Shavon.  All thats left is the center and point guard position.  The centers that we heard NU in on went to bigger and more prosperous schools.  Point guard there really doesnt seem to be a huge need there but also not a big market of them out there.  

 

One thing to also remember, just because BR and RW report things, it doesnt mean Miles and staff werent on top of other guys but they simply had no interest.  NU is still a new commodity on the circuit and doesnt hold the same weight.  I'd assume Walt wouldnt be at Nebraska if he played more and better as a freshman.  If Miles didnt have the relationship with terran I doubt we get him.  The relationships will be built, the connections will grow, and as they continue to build a winning tradition you will start to see more activity with transfers and recruits respectively.

[bball23]

Say a top 50 guy has 35 offers and only 1 team gets him.  Are the other 34 considered losers in that recruiting battle?

[bobcat402]

Say a top 50 guy has 35 offers and only 1 team gets him.  Are the other 34 considered losers in that recruiting battle?

great point

[atskooc]

 

 

ill attempt to, it takes multiple years to get in on basketball recruits, and multiple year to build relationships with the true top 150 player, your not going to come in and recruit a top 150 player out of the blue his senior year or even junior year your already to late, Miles' first class that he will have built these necessary relationships with will be in 2015 and beyond. No matter how good we were this past season, its not going to change the minds of 2014 recruits we need to prove over multiple years were the real deal not just a flash, remember we are recruiting against bluebloods for these top recruits to nail these top recruits we almost have to pitch a perfect game, and still hope for a few things to go right, the allure of duke, kansas, texas, kentucky, uconn, arizona,florida, unc, and others will always be greater than ours, we just have to strike and find one kid who dosnt care about all their traditions, and media hype those kids are hard to find...i recruiting strategy for this year is just fine, add to what we have, go after a kid or two or decommits hope they come to us, get a grad transfer, and put all the chips in 2015, 2016 and beyond. 

 

 

So what you are saying is that in 15, 16, and 17 we should see the results of 3 and 4 year relationships?  So if we get in early on a guy and scout him well and he ends up developing into a top 50 player we should have a leg up, right?

 

If not a leg up, at least we'll be standing on the same leg as some of the high-majors.

[bball23]

Also, as somebody pointed out about the transfers...so many transfers end up going to a place they were PREVIOUSLY recruited.  Just like Petteway did with NU.  Miles had recruited him to CSU...he went to Texas Tech, didn't like it if memory serves me, it was Terran's parents that actually reached out to Miles.  They had liked the relationship they had before from when he recruited them to CSU.  So the more Miles gets in on guys now, the better off it could eventually end up.  Maybe Deng Deng doesn't end up liking Baylor after next year...maybe he reaches back out to Miles to come to NU?  You just never know how this all pans out.  The more guys this staff gets in relationships with, the better.  Then having a guy from Tarin Smith for example playing under a legendary coach may help us on down the road get more guys from that school. 

[Swan88]

Really enjoying the discussion in this topic. Good stuff guys.

For some reason I'm the exact opposite from Cookie--this thread and discussion are incredibly frustrating and disappointing: it's like listening to a guy who just won a multi-million $ lottery complain about finances. For Pete's sake, whatever happened to "long, lean and under-rated"? By definition, Tim Miles' recruits will apparently be a disappointment to most. Heck, look at what Tim Miles did at Colorado State with few-to-none stars behind his recruit's names.

And for the record, NU is not a tough place to recruit--just ask Tim Miles and, as he says, Connie Yori, John Cook, etc.

And for the further record, the world of college basketball is filled with highly-rated recruits whose college performance falls somewhere between "disappointing" and "crashed and burned." Just look at the list of multi-star transfers this year and every other recent year. And then compare them with the over-achieving-from-expectations performance of most players on Tim Miles teams, such as the likes of Benny Parker, Shavon Shields, Walter Pitchford, Terran Petteway, Leslee Smith, and all the scholarship seniors on the prior year's team.

[Daledangdarn]

 

Really enjoying the discussion in this topic. Good stuff guys.

For some reason I'm the exact opposite from Cookie--this thread and discussion are incredibly frustrating and disappointing: it's like listening to a guy who just won a multi-million $ lottery complain about finances. For Pete's sake, whatever happened to "long, lean and under-rated"? By definition, Tim Miles' recruits will apparently be a disappointment to most. Heck, look at what Tim Miles did at Colorado State with few-to-none stars behind his recruit's names.

And for the record, NU is not a tough place to recruit--just ask Tim Miles and, as he says, Connie Yori, John Cook, etc.

And for the further record, the world of college basketball is filled with highly-rated recruits whose college performance falls somewhere between "disappointing" and "crashed and burned." Just look at the list of multi-star transfers this year and every other recent year. And then compare them with the over-achieving-from-expectations performance of most players on Tim Miles teams, such as the likes of Benny Parker, Shavon Shields, Walter Pitchford, Terran Petteway, Leslee Smith, and all the scholarship seniors on the prior year's team.

 

 

AMEN.

[Nebrasketballer]

Still amazes me how many people do not understand recruiting in basketball.

I agree. Nebraska's on court success this season happened too late to really have a serious impact on the 2014 class, because many recruits were already signed or already had their lists narrowed down. I believe Nebraska will see the benefits in the 2015 recruiting class.

[Bugeaters1]

 

Coach agree on the recruiting point. Don't expect top 50 players, but I remember the talent that Danny Nee brought in. True we had a rare run of in-state talent that helped, but he brought in some tremendous athletes. I would like to see coach Miles get a couple of great athletes with size that he can either coach up or that haven't been brought in by the traditional basketball powerhouses.

On Morrow, I guess we will see. I am not sure about his game away from the basket. I have not seen him play in person, so I will not claim to be an expert.

Plenty of players have dominated at the college level without being able to hit shots from 15 ft and beyond with any consistency.

 

I don't know if this is a good example, But the Husker women have such a player in Hallie Sample. She can go to the hoop but to hit a jump shot forget it, She is good at defending the other teams best scorer and she is good at getting rebounds

[Creighton Fan]

I don't think what Petteway did was nearly as big a surprise to the staff, who had known the kid for quite some time, as he was to all of us.

You prolly right, but thats not da point. Aint nobody questioning Miles ability to spot or evaluat talent. People be questioning whethrr Miles can secure that talent when havin to compete with others.

Pett is a great player and a great find, but dere wasnt much competition for him doe. Many either looked at his 1.9 ppg or the punch to the kansas cat and just took a pass. Great get for Miles, but says more bout his ability to spot talent den it do bout his ability to recruit. It gonna be hard to find dese sorts a diamonds in da ruff.on a regular basis.

Miles need ta show dat he can get cats dat other power schools be after. Hes struggled in dat area so far, but it is also still early.

[uneblinstu]

 

I don't think what Petteway did was nearly as big a surprise to the staff, who had known the kid for quite some time, as he was to all of us.

You prolly right, but thats not da point. Aint nobody questioning Miles ability to spot or evaluat talent. People be questioning whethrr Miles can secure that talent when havin to compete with others.

Pett is a great player and a great find, but dere wasnt much competition for him doe. Many either looked at his 1.9 ppg or the punch to the kansas cat and just took a pass. Great get for Miles, but says more bout his ability to spot talent den it do bout his ability to recruit. It gonna be hard to find dese sorts a diamonds in da ruff.on a regular basis.

Miles need ta show dat he can get cats dat other power schools be after. Hes struggled in dat area so far, but it is also still early.

 

I hear that, but that's not the point either. Petteway wasn't a thrift store find. They mostly knew what they were getting. They weren't buying the frame that happened to contain a Rembrandt. That was my point. Sure, we have to go up against bigger names, and with more success on the court, that will come.

[Badgett Fan]

Individual success for Petteway this upcoming season could be as helpful for recruiting as continued team success.  The more he pops up on ESPN, the better.  If a year from now, he's being talked about in terms of where he'll be drafted, great.  Some kids probably need to see that someone wearing the N can have hoops fame and go to the League.  For rival coaches, Nebraska has to be one of the easiest big conference schools to negatively recruit against because of its history and location.  Not that all coaches go that route, but sustained, publicized Petteway success will give Nebraska something else it can check off the list of its possible negatives.

The turnover among staff members likely hasn’t helped Miles' early high school recruiting, nor has the fact that only Hunter has had significant recent high major experience.  Molinari could turn out be a great hire, and he does have a couple of Minnesota years sandwiched in between a lot of mid major years, but it's arguable that a younger guy, especially one with high major recruiting experience, would have been at least as good of a choice.  But the hire's been made, so hopefully this current group will stick together for two or more years.

That said, I think Miles' recruiting looks as promising as it did a year ago.  Like Kamdy said, transfers were going to be a tough sell this offseason due to all of the minutes returning.  Don't think you can be too hard on Miles for not securing a bigger name at this point.  From what I've seen, Miles has done a great job of identifying needs, finding underrated talent, and targeting players early.  The 2014 class is a little underwhelming, but at least each guy fills a definite need.  I would expect the 2015 class to be a more respectable, middle-of-the-B1G-pack (or higher) group.

[TheKamdyMan]

The turnover among staff members likely hasn’t helped Miles' early high school recruiting, nor has the fact that only Hunter has had significant recent high major experience.  Molinari could turn out be a great hire, and he does have a couple of Minnesota years sandwiched in between a lot of mid major years, but it's arguable that a younger guy, especially one with high major recruiting experience, would have been at least as good of a choice.  But the hire's been made, so hopefully this current group will stick together for two or more years.

 

I actually like Molinari for his recruiting ties.  The guy has spent 33 years coaching in the Big 10 region.  Between Depaul, NIU, WIU, UM, Bradley, and Ball State he has been connected with many coaches at high schools and AAU programs all across the footprint that will be the easiest for NU to sell recruits on.  The years alone in Illinois will prove invaluable because of all the incredible basketball talent in the state.