Next seasons players

[HB]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:22 PM, Art Vandalay said:

We must have different meanings of trashed. Calling for some to be fired already is trashing in my book. Also Lutz is not a coach so he can’t recruit. Will agree I hoped Gates would be more involved in recruiting 

 

If a top 4 class in the big ten and 20th in the country does not look good we are in huge trouble.

 

If next year is not noticeably better and the freshman don’t look the part I will be more open to the criticism.

Who has called for Fred to be fired?   I don't recall one post like that.    If you think the current staff is perfect and off limits, fine, but general assertions to the contrary aren't out of left field.   We have brought in some players who flat out can't play at this level, so everything needs looked at.  Losing 24 straight or whatever it is, even early in a tenure, isn't good.    If someone would have suggested in October of '19 we'd not we'd lose all but 2 in year one, and the first 8 in year 2, they'd have gotten 100 down-arrows and a boat load of ridicule.  So the mild critiques on here aren't really that bad under the circumstances.  The mild suggestions for Fred pale in comparisons to those for Frost, once a returning golden boy, in his second year, even though the on the field result was better than this.  So please tell football fan poster  to have some patience also.  

Edited February 13, 2021 by HB

[Art Vandalay]

1 hour ago, NUdiehard said:

 

This is why I specifically qualified my statement by saying "Danny Nee lock up the state at a time of great Nebraska talent"  Almost all those players were during the early 90s , and Nee got them all.  After them, the state went through a stretch where there was very little talent.  Collier tried to take some Nebraska kids, but they were not very talented and it backfired.  I am not interested in taking every mid-major Nebraska kid, but when we have multiple 4* and 5* and guys who are going to Wisconsin, Creighton, Oklahoma State and various blue bloods, all around the same few years, Fred needs to make some inroads on those guys.  Whatever it takes.  One has to wonder whether taking Teddy hurt his chances with the others.  Is Fred courting the Nebraska HS coaches, getting in their good graces?  Every action has a reaction. Every decision must be made with the longest view in the room.  How does it advantage us and disadvantage us going forward. 

 

With all this said, for whatever it is worth, I am still 100% all-aboard the Hoiberg train.  I am not in any way, shape or form wanting to move on from him.  He is the "golden boy" hire and I am prepared to sink or swim with him 100%.  Even after losing 25 straight, If I could force him to sign a 10-year contract in which he couldn't leave and couldn't be fired (meaning he would have to be here the next 10 years no matter what his record), i would do it in a second.  Honestly, if Fred can't pull this off here, then it may just be time to pack it in.  Some of us have been doing this groundhog day for far too long.  I believe Fred can do it, I am just commenting on my observations on the current roster, the current recruits and his current staff.  And again, I hope I am wrong about Keisei and Breidenbach, I really do.  But if not, then there are going to have to be a few more spots open up and Fred is going to have to bring in a few legit difference maker transfers (ie, Point Guard) if Nebraska is going to compete next year in the B1G.

When Nee was here there was not real high end nationally recruited talent in the state at all. He got some great role players from here but was not beating the big boys for them.

 

High end national recruits in that era that I can remember were Woolridge, Strickland, TJ Pugh, Curtis Marshall, just not that many high level guys. Who did he win / keep? He lost to KU and NC state for guys as well.

 

I just can’t hold Fred’s feet to the fire for losing out on kids who can go to blue blood schools like Kansas or Kentucky. In a couple years I hope that will change.

[Art Vandalay]

5 minutes ago, HB said:

Who has called for Fred to be fired?   I don't recall one post like that.    If you think the current staff is perfect and off limits, fine, but general assertions to the contrary aren't out of left field.   We have brought in some players who flat out can't play at this level, so everything needs looked at.  Losing 24 straight or whatever it is, even early in a tenure, isn't good.    If someone would have suggested in October of '19 we'd not we'd lose all but 2 in year one, and the first 8 in year 2, they'd have gotten 100 down-arrows and a boat load of ridicule.  So the mild critiques on here aren't really that bad under the circumstances.  

I specifically said trashing “the staff” and you have called for him to replace guys twice. I never said anyone was calling for Fred to be fired, so don’t try to change the narrative. I stand by that. Not even two years in and the 4th rank class in the Big Ten coming in. If that class flops I’ll listen but I think Fred has earned the benefit and these are the guys he wants on staff.

[HB]

2 minutes ago, Art Vandalay said:

I specifically said trashing “the staff” and you have called for him to replace guys twice. I never said anyone was calling for Fred to be fired, so don’t try to change the narrative. I stand by that. Not even two years in and the 4th rank class in the Big Ten coming in. If that class flops I’ll listen but I think Fred has earned the benefit and these are the guys he wants on staff.

 

Carry on.  If you think we have a good recruiting staff right now, go for it.   I'll go by what I see when they play minutes on the court.

[atskooc]

35 minutes ago, Art Vandalay said:

When Nee was here there was not real high end nationally recruited talent in the state at all. He got some great role players from here but was not beating the big boys for them.

 

High end national recruits in that era that I can remember were Woolridge, Strickland, TJ Pugh, Curtis Marshall, just not that many high level guys. Who did he win / keep? He lost to KU and NC state for guys as well.

 

I just can’t hold Fred’s feet to the fire for losing out on kids who can go to blue blood schools like Kansas or Kentucky. In a couple years I hope that will change.

Alton Mason?

Alvin Mitchell?

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by atskooc

[Art Vandalay]

1 minute ago, atskooc said:

Alton Mason?

Alvin Mitchell?

 

thought of them and my personal favorite Terry Badgett but don’t think any of them had KU, Kentucky, ACC type offers at the time but could be wrong

[atskooc]

1 hour ago, Art Vandalay said:

thought of them and my personal favorite Terry Badgett but don’t think any of them had KU, Kentucky, ACC type offers at the time but could be wrong

True.

 

Mason went to Marquette out of high school, which wasn't too shabby.

 

I believe Mitchell played for Huggy Bear at Cincinnati, which I thought was pretty solid.

 

As far as other big-time offers, I have no idea.

Edited February 13, 2021 by atskooc

[Fullbacksympathy]

7 hours ago, HB said:

 

Well meaning, but delusionally optimistic.     Who guards the post in the Big 10 in either lineup?  Does defense in the Big not matter?   Oh yeah, but 5-out.   Let me know when that wins consistently in this league; when it happens I will stand down and salute.  And no true point guard (I guess you're saying Bryce is, will be interesting to see)?   Yeah, that's going well.   In the first, there is one shooter, maybe 2.  In the second, maybe 3 if the newbies can actually shoot consistently (let's just say a lot of people thought we had more shooters' coming in this year than we did; see recent post by Padilla on Bryce shooting stats).    Problem is every year people look at some highlight clips, and think the new guys are all that.   Well, I hope you're right, and I'm just the old board curmudgeon.  

We’ve got Walker to guard the post if the matchups aren’t working.  That’s kind of my point.  There will be options next season because it will be Fred’s first complete roster.  He hasn’t been here two years yet and already got a top 20 class.  
 

And hell yes Bryce can play point guard.  He’s the highest rated one we’ve ever recruited.  Just because he’s 6’6” and can get his own shot doesn’t mean he’s void of having PG abilities.  
 

As for the 5-out, I’m partial to a 1-4 high like MSU runs, but the 5-out has dominated in B1G play very recently.  Remember Beilein’s Michigan teams kicking everyone’s ass with it by the end of each season?  Our coach wants to do exactly the same thing with similar personnel.  It’s the most effective offensive system we’ve seen of late in this league.  

[Art Vandalay]

6 hours ago, HB said:

 

Carry on.  If you think we have a good recruiting staff right now, go for it.   I'll go by what I see when they play minutes on the court.

Wow, that is what I have been saying. Judge them by what their recruits do on the court. This will be their first legit class (and it’s rated highly) They have not even been here 2 years yet so the first classes were just thrown together as best they could with limited time and relationships

[HB]

14 minutes ago, Art Vandalay said:

Wow, that is what I have been saying. Judge them by what their recruits do on the court. This will be their first legit class (and it’s rated highly) They have not even been here 2 years yet so the first classes were just thrown together as best they could with limited time and relationships

Why was the second year “just thrown together”?    If these guys are all that, they could have done better.  Anyway, time will tell.  And I predict some changes in the off season.  And I also hope you are right and these guys prove to be  awesome.  

[ConkTrifecta3]

23 hours ago, NUdiehard said:

The B1G is a grind.  So many top level teams.  What we are all learning is that to compete in the B1G, you can't have a roster full of one-dimensional players.  We have some players that our good/great athletes, but not great shooters (Banton, Trey, Shamiel).  We have others that our good shooters, but not good athletes (Webster, Lakes).  And then we have a guy like Lat who is a decent shooter and a decent athletes (but not great by any means), but otherwise lacks all basic basketball skills.  And Teddy, well, he is just Teddy (not a great athlete and really struggles with the mental game).

 

I really hoped a guy like Lakes could add that shooting dimension, but the B1G is proving you have to have a certain level of athleticism or you become unplayable.  Without that athleticism, Lakes can't defend sufficient, and can't even get open long enough to get his shot off.  Kobe is similar, he is just outmatched athletically in this league.  He is not a B1G caliber player. This is not to knock him, I like his grit and effort, but he is not legit B1G talent (too small, not quick enough, not a good passer, not a great shooter, etc). 

 

Shamiel is a wrecking ball and is actually pretty good finishing at the rim.  But any shot more than 3 feet from the hoop is an abomination, not sure I've ever seen a wing with less touch from the outside.   Other teams know this.  Watch them, they don't guard him at all when he is on the perimeter.  And every time Shamiel  catches it, he pump fakes (to no one), and then shuffles his feet (called for traveling half the time) and bulls his way into the crowded paint area.  Rinse and repeat.  This is the one-dimensional play that won't work.  Can't have a guy who simply cannot and will not shoot on the perimeter, the defense will simply ignore him. 

 

Yvonne.  Seems like a great kid, works incredibly hard.  But he looks like a kid who never, and I mean never, played any sport of any kind growing up.  At least not with his hands.  Maybe he played soccer, i don't know.  But he has absolutely no feel and touch with this fingertips.  We all know he shoots from his palm, he passes from his palm, he shotputs his shots.  He is shooting 2-16 on free throws in conference!  2-16!!!!  What baffles me is I watched 5 minutes of his highlight film when he was recruited and this was painfully obvious.  How does someone like Hoiberg watch his film and not see this.  This lack of feel with the hands/fingers is simply not something that can be changed/improved very often, and it does not appear Yvonne has even tried.  Due to misses like this, it does make one start to question this staff's ability to evaluate talent.

 

Banton is a skilled player for his size, but he can't shoot.  He hit a few early in the season, but now is shooting 24% from 3 overall and just 19% in conference.  He is a good player and a solid core piece, but I don't think we have to worry about him going to the NBA anytime soon.  He also isn't a PG.  This team desperately needs a true PG who can distribute and shoot.

 

I love Trey, love his grit, hustle, effort, and even his gamesmanship (drawing fouls, etc).  Great athlete, but unfortunately, he is just not a naturally skilled basketball player.  He is an athlete playing basketball.  He can get incrementally better, and he definitely is a keeper, but he mostly is what he is--an inefficient grinder who will never be a great passer or shooter.  Although his 3-point percentage is good, it is on low volume, especially in conference where he has shot only 13 threes in 8 games, and you can see he is hesitant to pull the trigger, resulting in him constantly driving the lane.  So many people say all we have to do is "love the rim".  Well, I think we all saw what can happen when a bunch of players who can't shoot just "love the rim" all game.  It wasn't pretty.

 

Andre.  Although he hasn't done much this year, I really like Andre. He is a definite bright spot in my book.  He already has much better feel, touch and skill than either Yvonne or Walker.  And he hasn't even been playing the game that long.  Great length and very good athleticism.  Good timing.  He could eventually be the big man we need, but he needs to put on weight.  That will be the determining factor, can he bulk up enough.

 

As to next year, Bryce McGowens is exactly the type of player we need.  A three dimensional player, a three level scorer, passer defender.  He has the whole package.  But, he is slender and will just be a freshman. I don't think it is fair to expect him to come in as a skinny freshman and tear up the B1G. 

 

I hope upon hope I am wrong, but I don't see much contribution next year coming from either Keisei or Breidenbach.  I have already posted my thoughts about Breidenbach, and his lack of size and athleticism, so I won't repeat here other than to say this goes back to my initial point.  He appears to me to be a one-dimensional player--very skilled, but poor athlete.  I just don't see it working in the B1G, especially not his first couple of years (and who knows if he will last all 4 years, does anyone?).  Keisie is the same things--very skilled shooter, but lacks athleticism and size.  Yet another one-dimensional player.  I don't think he will be able to get his shot off consistently in the B1G, and he will get destroyed on the defensive end.  I recently checked his juco stats and they have only played a couple games but his numbers were very pedestrian and he didn't even start at least one of the games. 

 

Fred made a mistake in thinking he could bring in 2 coaches that only coach and don't recruit.  He has relied almost exclusively on Matt A. to do all the recruiting.  This simply isn't working.  Fred is going to have to make some tough decisions in the offseason and most likely have to bring in 1 or 2 more ace recruiters to up the talent.  It is that simple.  Nebraska has a talent problem.  Upgrade the talent, and upgrade the wins.  With that said, it is so disappointing seeing his complete inability to recruit the talent right here in our own state.  As someone who watched Danny Nee lock up the state at a time of great Nebraska talent, it is a shame to see player after player in our home state go to other schools when if they simply all cam together here at NU, along with Bryce, Banton, Andre and Trey, could have a great, and I mean great, team.  Danny did it.  Why can't Fred?

 

So it sounds like you disagree with the recruiting rankings?  Youve seemed to place a label on these guys after 16 games playing together and a month off.... These guys are going to get more comfortable and improve.  We have already seen it with Lat.  Harsh take in my opinion.  You are looking at this from 3 ft away.. zoom out and its different.  Patience.  Minus 1 NU... off base on this.

[Fastbreaker]

2 hours ago, ConkTrifecta3 said:

So it sounds like you disagree with the recruiting rankings?  Youve seemed to place a label on these guys after 16 games playing together and a month off.... These guys are going to get more comfortable and improve.  We have already seen it with Lat.  Harsh take in my opinion.  You are looking at this from 3 ft away.. zoom out and its different.  Patience.  Minus 1 NU... off base on this.

I don't think it was a harsh take.  Last summer according to this board, Teddy is an unstoppable offensive machine,  Banton is triple-double monster, Shamiel is the enforcer on the wing.  Yvan, who you know was only 17, would make tremendous improvements and Lat and Thor were sure three point snipers.  And Trey will be the glue guy.  We would be around .500 in the B1G.

[Art Vandalay]

13 hours ago, HB said:

Why was the second year “just thrown together”?    If these guys are all that, they could have done better.  Anyway, time will tell.  And I predict some changes in the off season.  And I also hope you are right and these guys prove to be  awesome.  

Because when they were hired they had to spend the first few months putting together last years team. At that time most other teams were already finishing their 2020 classes. So by the time we could start trying to focus on 2020 class we were way behind everyone. Then you have less players still available and you are way behind building relationships with the remaining available high school guys. So you go more on juco and transfers again. Sure they could have done better but I like Andre at least.
 

They finally get caught up and get two highly rated high school kids for 21 and will probably fill in a transfer or two. Hopefully that is how they will build going forward and that is why i believe we should give them another season before the pitchforks come out for the staff.

[49r]

I love how we're now declaring players complete busts before they even set foot on campus.  Seems like the best way to build a winning culture.

[Nebrasketball1979]

Just now, 49r said:

I love how we're now declaring players complete busts before they even set foot on campus.  Seems like the best way to build a winning culture.

 

Well, fortunately the games are not played within the confines of these message boards.  If they were, I would volunteer to replace one of the Coaches as I have a ton of experience coaching kids from 5-11 years old in ages.  My experience would translate well and I do a damn good job coaching from my couch each game with a drink in my hand.  It really isn't that hard.

[ConkTrifecta3]

1 hour ago, Fastbreaker said:

I don't think it was a harsh take.  Last summer according to this board, Teddy is an unstoppable offensive machine,  Banton is triple-double monster, Shamiel is the enforcer on the wing.  Yvan, who you know was only 17, would make tremendous improvements and Lat and Thor were sure three point snipers.  And Trey will be the glue guy.  We would be around .500 in the B1G.

You do understand that it takes a bit for talent to gel, and losing a month (in the worst possible month) January is when you tend to see teams get it together, factor in a short non conference, no Derrick Walker for first half.. come on.  It was a harsh take.  Unless you are being completely unreasonable.

[HB]

1 hour ago, Fastbreaker said:

I don't think it was a harsh take.  Last summer according to this board, Teddy is an unstoppable offensive machine,  Banton is triple-double monster, Shamiel is the enforcer on the wing.  Yvan, who you know was only 17, would make tremendous improvements and Lat and Thor were sure three point snipers.  And Trey will be the glue guy.  We would be around .500 in the B1G.

 

Yeah, the board is hilarious.   Hilariously wrong most of the time.  But no one comes on and says “man, was I wrong by a mile.”    Instead they tend to attack those who are more accurate.  

[ConkTrifecta3]

16 minutes ago, HB said:

 

Yeah, the board is hilarious.   Hilariously wrong most of the time.  But no one comes on and says “man, was I wrong by a mile.”    Instead they tend to attack those who are more accurate.  

I agree that the sunshine pumpers are just that.  However I dont see any reason for the harsh criticism, given this is year 2 (if you want to call it that) and are trying to implement a system involving all new players.

[jimmykc]

I agree, HB, the board can be hilarious at times. I think the small cadre of daft individuals who follow Nebraska basketball have a vast reservoir of pent-up rage and angst developed over the years and have achieved their honorary degrees in self-flagellation and dark humor. We are all waiting for something (anything) to get us excited about our team. I understand the cardboard cutouts were going to rush the court if the infamous final shot had been made (or taken) last night. Anyway, as I have stated, now my modest goal for this year is to knock someone out of the Big Ten tourney. We will obviously be last. Our choices should be either Michigan, Ohio State or Illinois. I would choose to face Illinois again myself since I don't like the cut of their sourpuss coach's jib. 

[HB]

1 hour ago, ConkTrifecta3 said:

I agree that the sunshine pumpers are just that.  However I dont see any reason for the harsh criticism, given this is year 2 (if you want to call it that) and are trying to implement a system involving all new players.

I’m just saying that for a team that has lost 26 straight conference games, with some putrid non-conference losses,  the criticism hasn’t been that sharp.   Certainly not by message board standards, although this one has always been better than most.  So when there is a well though-out post, respectfully articulated like Diehards, I’m going to defend him.  Ok for people to disagree with him, or me, or someone who even thinks Banton will play in the NBA.   But people should be able to post like that without recrimination.  Yes, we’re only in the second year.  On the other hand, the performance has been the worst of my long lifetime, by far.  To suggest that we might want to tweak a few things already in the face of that shouldn’t subject one to attack.  My guess is any other coach we would have brought in wouldn’t have such a hands off standard.  But Fred is the Mayor.  

[hhcmatt]

1 hour ago, HB said:

My guess is any other coach we would have brought in wouldn’t have such a hands off standard.  But Fred is the Mayor.

 

That's the dark magic of the Bill Moos era...the hiring of unfireable coaches

[ConkTrifecta3]

3 hours ago, HB said:

I’m just saying that for a team that has lost 26 straight conference games, with some putrid non-conference losses,  the criticism hasn’t been that sharp.   Certainly not by message board standards, although this one has always been better than most.  So when there is a well though-out post, respectfully articulated like Diehards, I’m going to defend him.  Ok for people to disagree with him, or me, or someone who even thinks Banton will play in the NBA.   But people should be able to post like that without recrimination.  Yes, we’re only in the second year.  On the other hand, the performance has been the worst of my long lifetime, by far.  To suggest that we might want to tweak a few things already in the face of that shouldn’t subject one to attack.  My guess is any other coach we would have brought in wouldn’t have such a hands off standard.  But Fred is the Mayor.  

I dont think the post was well thought out.  I dont think he knows how good Breidenbach or Kesiei will be.  None of us do.  But the folks that matter think we brought in the 4th best class in the conference and I for one am not going to complain.  Its ok to disagree and you and Diehard have the right to your opinion.  I guess if things havent changed next year at this time- then we can criticize with some reasonable evidence.  

[HB]

1 hour ago, ConkTrifecta3 said:

I dont think the post was well thought out.  I dont think he knows how good Breidenbach or Kesiei will be.  None of us do.  But the folks that matter think we brought in the 4th best class in the conference and I for one am not going to complain.  Its ok to disagree and you and Diehard have the right to your opinion.  I guess if things havent changed next year at this time- then we can criticize with some reasonable evidence.  

There’s plenty of reasonable evidence right now.   You and Art can try to set an arbitrary timeline for it, but you’re not the sole arbiters.

[ConkTrifecta3]

15 minutes ago, HB said:

There’s plenty of reasonable evidence right now.   You and Art can try to set an arbitrary timeline for it, but you’re not the sole arbiters.

And what would that be?

[Art Vandalay]

22 minutes ago, HB said:

There’s plenty of reasonable evidence right now.   You and Art can try to set an arbitrary timeline for it, but you’re not the sole arbiters.

Jesus man. I’ve presented logical reasons and timelines for my opinions, what have you showed? You don’t like what your eyes see, they suck at recruiting? You are pissed Lutz isn’t recruiting even though he’s not allowed to. Stop with the victim card already.