Craig S-myth

[Norm Peterson]

Fact or fiction:  When Craig Smith was on our bench, man, we had a great offense and it's totally gone down the shitter since he left. Now, we have middle-school, clear-out, hero ball; before, we actually ran an offensive system. Smith was the offensive genius behind Miles' first NCAA tourney run and we've never been as good since he left.

 

I don't have a subscription to KenPom so I don't know how to read his data.  But I keep reading comments by people essentially claiming the above.  

 

But the above doesn't really square with my recollection.  My recollection was we had Terran Petteway getting isos and taking a crap-ton of ill-advised shots, a bunch of which happened to fall.

 

Can any of you data/metrics types answer the question of whether our offense is materially different since Craig Smith left?

 

P.S.  I'm not saying Smith isn't a good coach.  He's clearly turned things around at SDSU and now Utah State.  The guy can obviously coach.  But was he the offensive mastermind he's being credited as being, the departure of whom has left us in our current lurch?

[jason2486]

24 minutes ago, Norm Peterson said:

Fact or fiction:  When Craig Smith was on our bench, man, we had a great offense and it's totally gone down the shitter since he left. Now, we have middle-school, clear-out, hero ball; before, we actually ran an offensive system. Smith was the offensive genius behind Miles' first NCAA tourney run and we've never been as good since he left.

 

I don't have a subscription to KenPom so I don't know how to read his data.  But I keep reading comments by people essentially claiming the above.  

 

But the above doesn't really square with my recollection.  My recollection was we had Terran Petteway getting isos and taking a crap-ton of ill-advised shots, a bunch of which happened to fall.

 

Can any of you data/metrics types answer the question of whether our offense is materially different since Craig Smith left?

 

P.S.  I'm not saying Smith isn't a good coach.  He's clearly turned things around at SDSU and now Utah State.  The guy can obviously coach.  But was he the offensive mastermind he's being credited as being, the departure of whom has left us in our current lurch?

 

Funny you bring this up Norm! I found myself browsing YouTube last night watching some old games, and I came across the 2014 B1G tourney when we should've beat OSU. We had lots of moments where it was Iso for TP and SS. We also had poor spacing and some very ugly possessions. I can honestly say it doesn't look much different from what we have seen since Smith left. That's not saying he isn't good, but the ridiculous thought that him leaving was our downfall is ludicrous. Michael Lewis does as good of a job with the offense. Our offense has had moments where it looks phenomenal. I think it's easy to forget how different we became once Copeland went down. Totally changes what we can do offensively and defensively.

[Swan88]

Whenever a member of a long-term team leaves, there is a loss in performance—at least for a while.

We might postulate from recent history (I’m trying to sound scientific with such words—unsuccessfully, no doubt) that the long-term team of Tim Miles + Craig Smith > the shorter-term team of Tim Miles + anyone else.

[brfrad]

IIRC, that season had more to do with becoming a lock down defense.  We were lousy on defense in the non conference and first four games of conference play.  In fact our first 16 games we held 9 teams under 70.  Our final 16 games we held 12 teams under 70.  

 

According to sports reference, our offensive rating was 222nd.  Our defensive rating was 73rd.

[Dead Dog Alley]

I’d need to go back and watch some games from back then, but I’d say that Ray Gallegos was constantly moving when he was off the ball a lot of the time - something we’ve been missing?

[huskerbaseball13]

I always felt Smith was more of the glue guy and the guy who was able to get thru to the players. Our navy seal if you will. 

 

Our offense that year was pretty standard for a Tim Miles team. Adj eff ranked #112 and our efg% ranked 224. The following year after Smith left our numbers went to #247 and #288. 

[jason2486]

54 minutes ago, huskerbaseball13 said:

I always felt Smith was more of the glue guy and the guy who was able to get thru to the players. Our navy seal if you will. 

 

Our offense that year was pretty standard for a Tim Miles team. Adj eff ranked #112 and our efg% ranked 224. The following year after Smith left our numbers went to #247 and #288. 

 

Not saying you're wrong, but what proof do you have that he was the "glue" guy?

[jason2486]

1 hour ago, brfrad said:

IIRC, that season had more to do with becoming a lock down defense.  We were lousy on defense in the non conference and first four games of conference play.  In fact our first 16 games we held 9 teams under 70.  Our final 16 games we held 12 teams under 70.  

 

According to sports reference, our offensive rating was 222nd.  Our defensive rating was 73rd.

 

We also ran 2-3, something we haven't seen in a while. I thought before the Copeland injury, we could've ran some fairly effectively.

[huskerbaseball13]

18 minutes ago, jason2486 said:

 

Not saying you're wrong, but what proof do you have that he was the "glue" guy?

 

I don't have any proof.  It was more so just watching him interact with the guys on the bench and stemming from how Tim Miles like this year, lost the team in 2015. 

[avfan2121]

One aspect people typically don't mention from the tourney team is that the block/charge rule was emphasized differently that season. I don't have the data, but felt like that led to us getting a lot more and-1s and free throws. The next year it reverted back and felt like we got called for a lot more charges. 

[bigred4]

Not sure if he was the offensive mastermind, but there was definitely a good dynamic between him and Miles.  Both of Miles'  NCAA appearances he was on the bench and I think you could argue the first year at Nebraska was one of Miles best coaching jobs while at Nebraska (winning 15 games while having 3 guys sit out as transfers and only playing 7 scholarship guys all year) also came with Smith on the bench.

 

Also, Smith has proven to be a very good head coach ( 2 conference titles in 5 years) while MIles has never finished better than 4th in 12 years. 

 

I don't know if Smith would have been able to sort out the dysfunction of the 14-15 team, but had he stayed one more year and they went to the Tourney, everybody is probably viewing Miles a little different with 2 NCAA appearances in 3 years.

[hhcmatt]

I'd say Smith's offense looks similar in style at South Dakota as it did to ours for most of the Miles era: High FTR, Low Assist Rate, low 3pt attempt %.  Probably the biggest difference is that Smith had a faster paced offense which I would attribute to them taking a first shot available as opposed to fast breaking just based on generally how successful they were on the defensive boards. 

 

After such a long time working together it's hard to say whether this is Smith or Miles' offense, right?  It would seem this would be mostly a collaboration given how similar it was from 2015-2017 for both schools. I guess a question might be who implemented it better and I can't really pick a definitive winner here....they're both sort of middle of the road.

 

Smith's stuff looks different this year as the assist% is WAY up and the 3PA% is up. Maybe it's new players used to parts of their previous coach or maybe it's the one new guy he hired who wasn't at South Dakota or maybe he just changed.  Miles has changed/evolved the way he's done things and there is no reason at this point to think that Smith can't/won't. We'll see what his numbers look like in the following year.

 

I'd say the one interesting part of Craig's roster is freshman center Neemias Queta.  Not sure how Smith found him but he's from Portugal, can and will shoot, block shots, and rebounds in a 6'11 240# frame in the Mountain West.  It's probable he would be starting here with Copeland out

[B-town hoopsfan]

1 hour ago, hhcmatt said:

 

 

I'd say the one interesting part of Craig's roster is freshman center Neemias Queta.  Not sure how Smith found him but he's from Portugal, can and will shoot, block shots, and rebounds in a 6'11 240# frame in the Mountain West.  It's probable he would be starting here with Copeland out

My biggest question about smith would be his recruiting abilities 

[Neebraska]

13 minutes ago, B-town hoopsfan said:

My biggest question about smith would be his recruiting abilities 

That question has partly been answered since he's done plenty of recruiting here.  The bigger question is how we feel about that recruiting.

[B-town hoopsfan]

7 minutes ago, Neebraska said:

That question has partly been answered since he's done plenty of recruiting here.  The bigger question is how we feel about that recruiting.

Who was he credited for getting here? Was he involved w Watson marrow and Jacobsen?

[*Deleted Account*]

Here is what isn't a myth. Nebraska sucks but wins within 2 years. Nebraska sucks the day Craig Smith leaves even with better team coming back. South Dakota sucks, Craig Smith wins immediately within 2 years. Utah State sucks, wins immediately. Some coaches have the Urban Meyer effect. It looks to me like Craig Smith might. The evidence points in that direction. Plus he has been at Nebraska before and understands the challenges from day 1. I prefer a proven P5 winner coach but if we have to go mid major than Smith is the best hire Nebraska can make. 

[Bugeaters1]

2 minutes ago, DOATHLON said:

Here is what isn't a myth. Nebraska sucks but wins within 2 years. Nebraska sucks the day Craig Smith leaves even with better team coming back. South Dakota sucks, Craig Smith wins immediately within 2 years. Utah State sucks, wins immediately. Some coaches have the Urban Meyer effect. It looks to me like Craig Smith might. The evidence points in that direction. Plus he has been at Nebraska before and understands the challenges from day 1. I prefer a proven P5 winner coach but if we have to go mid major than Smith is the best hire Nebraska can make. 

Can you prove this?

 

[*Deleted Account*]

Can I prove this? For what. It’s like people are too lazy to use google or they think “sourcing “ ridiculous things makes them look smart. It doesn’t. It just looks lazy. 

[B-town hoopsfan]

3 hours ago, DOATHLON said:

Here is what isn't a myth. Nebraska sucks but wins within 2 years. Nebraska sucks the day Craig Smith leaves even with better team coming back. South Dakota sucks, Craig Smith wins immediately within 2 years. Utah State sucks, wins immediately. Some coaches have the Urban Meyer effect. It looks to me like Craig Smith might. The evidence points in that direction. Plus he has been at Nebraska before and understands the challenges from day 1. I prefer a proven P5 winner coach but if we have to go mid major than Smith is the best hire Nebraska can make. 

Yup took a couple years to get it rolling at South Dakota but he turned them into something. Like you said the intriguing thing is he already knows what the challenges are here and has went out and won at other locations. He also brought in two guys at South Dakota from Nebraska that are at the very least good roll players if they were at Nebraska. So he recruits the state already 

[Huskerpapa]

Smith was a good assistant.  He is starting to prove he is a good head coach as well.  At the same level, Coach Miles was considered a good coach, who turned moribund programs into winning programs.  Coach Miles had been considered good at Nebraska, then bad, then good again and now bad again.    

 

Going to Norm's original point/question.  This does not sort out well, but it is somewhat readable.  This year is obviously not completed.  But shoot, arguably, the offense is the same if not a bit better???

 

2012/13

TEAM STATISTICS                    NEB          OPP
---------------------------------------------------
SCORING..................         1923         2094
  Points per game........         58.3         63.5
  Scoring margin.........         -5.2            -
FIELD GOALS-ATT..........     708-1741     736-1695
  Field goal pct.........         .407         .434
3 POINT FG-ATT...........      165-537      177-530
  3-point FG pct.........         .307         .334
  3-pt FG made per game..          5.0          5.4
FREE THROWS-ATT..........      342-494      445-659
  Free throw pct.........         .692         .675
  F-Throws made per game.         10.4         13.5
REBOUNDS.................         1041         1161
  Rebounds per game......         31.5         35.2
  Rebounding margin......         -3.6            -
ASSISTS..................          325          366
  Assists per game.......          9.8         11.1
TURNOVERS................          352          368
  Turnovers per game.....         10.7         11.2
  Turnover margin........         +0.5            -
  Assist/turnover ratio..          0.9          1.0
STEALS...................          167          172
  Steals per game........          5.1          5.2
BLOCKS...................          103          136
  Blocks per game........          3.1          4.1

 

This year:

 

TEAM STATISTICS NEB OPP
SCORING 2142 1978
 Points per game 71.4 65.9
 Scoring margin +5.5 -
FIELD GOALS-ATT 758-1778 724-1748
 Field goal pct . 4 2 6 . 4 1 4
3 POINT FG-ATT 226-671 188-577
 3-point FG pct . 3 3 7 . 3 2 6
 3-pt FG made per game 7.5 6.3
FREE THROWS-ATT 400-571 342-494
 Free throw pct . 7 0 1 . 6 9 2
 F-Throws made per game 13.3 11.4
REBOUNDS 1074 1149
 Rebounds per game 35.8 38.3
 Rebounding margin -2.5 -
ASSISTS 385 323
 Assists per game 12.8 10.8
TURNOVERS 290 390
 Turnovers per game 9.7 13.0
 Turnover margin +3.3 -
 Assist/turnover ratio 1.3 0.8
STEALS 212 149
 Steals per game 7.1 5.0
BLOCKS 125 110
 Blocks per game 4.2 3.7

[B-town hoopsfan]

3 hours ago, Huskerpapa said:

Smith was a good assistant.  He is starting to prove he is a good head coach as well.  At the same level, Coach Miles was considered a good coach, who turned moribund programs into winning programs.  Coach Miles had been considered good at Nebraska, then bad, then good again and now bad again.    

 

Going to Norm's original point/question.  This does not sort out well, but it is somewhat readable.  This year is obviously not completed.  But shoot, arguably, the offense is the same if not a bit better???

 

2012/13

TEAM STATISTICS                    NEB          OPP
---------------------------------------------------
SCORING..................         1923         2094
  Points per game........         58.3         63.5
  Scoring margin.........         -5.2            -
FIELD GOALS-ATT..........     708-1741     736-1695
  Field goal pct.........         .407         .434
3 POINT FG-ATT...........      165-537      177-530
  3-point FG pct.........         .307         .334
  3-pt FG made per game..          5.0          5.4
FREE THROWS-ATT..........      342-494      445-659
  Free throw pct.........         .692         .675
  F-Throws made per game.         10.4         13.5
REBOUNDS.................         1041         1161
  Rebounds per game......         31.5         35.2
  Rebounding margin......         -3.6            -
ASSISTS..................          325          366
  Assists per game.......          9.8         11.1
TURNOVERS................          352          368
  Turnovers per game.....         10.7         11.2
  Turnover margin........         +0.5            -
  Assist/turnover ratio..          0.9          1.0
STEALS...................          167          172
  Steals per game........          5.1          5.2
BLOCKS...................          103          136
  Blocks per game........          3.1          4.1

 

This year:

 

TEAM STATISTICS NEB OPP
SCORING 2142 1978
 Points per game 71.4 65.9
 Scoring margin +5.5 -
FIELD GOALS-ATT 758-1778 724-1748
 Field goal pct . 4 2 6 . 4 1 4
3 POINT FG-ATT 226-671 188-577
 3-point FG pct . 3 3 7 . 3 2 6
 3-pt FG made per game 7.5 6.3
FREE THROWS-ATT 400-571 342-494
 Free throw pct . 7 0 1 . 6 9 2
 F-Throws made per game 13.3 11.4
REBOUNDS 1074 1149
 Rebounds per game 35.8 38.3
 Rebounding margin -2.5 -
ASSISTS 385 323
 Assists per game 12.8 10.8
TURNOVERS 290 390
 Turnovers per game 9.7 13.0
 Turnover margin +3.3 -
 Assist/turnover ratio 1.3 0.8
STEALS 212 149
 Steals per game 7.1 5.0
BLOCKS 125 110
 Blocks per game 4.2 3.7

Miles ultimate down fall wasn’t necessarily his offense. It was his player management. Inability to keep posts  or 3 and 4 year players in the program 

[Huskerpapa]

3 hours ago, B-town hoopsfan said:

Miles ultimate down fall wasn’t necessarily his offense. It was his player management. Inability to keep posts  or 3 and 4 year players in the program 

You may be correct,, but I was addressing the question that was brought out at the top of this thread.  

[Handy Johnson]

He ain’t coming here & the people that harbor that notion need their head examined...

[B-town hoopsfan]

42 minutes ago, Handy Johnson said:

He ain’t coming here & the people that harbor that notion need their head examined...

Assistants do go back to places from time to time. He certainly won’t be the first guy they try to get but could he be the first one on the list that says yes? 

[Bugeaters1]

On 3/8/2019 at 7:06 PM, DOATHLON said:

Can I prove this? For what. It’s like people are too lazy to use google or they think “sourcing “ ridiculous things makes them look smart. It doesn’t. It just looks lazy. 

It's your to prove not mine. Seeme to me you are the lazy one.