Reason # 2354 why I don't like to watch the NBA

[Silverbacked1]

I will add this little bit to it.

 

How about the coaches in  7 games?

 

Pat Riley or Phil Jackson vs Erik Spoelstra, that might be the biggest difference in the whole thing.

 

What would Phil be saying in the press to get the games called like he would like?  And how would he be gettin ginto Le
Bron's head right now?  That might have been the best part of these games. 

[royalfan]

I feel many make the mistake you are dean. The heat are indeed far superior athletes than those guys you mention. Not even remotely close. And going to the Norris cole comparison card is absurd. He isn't even their better point guard. Charmers way more athletic and a good solid defensive point. Common mistake many people that think old school basketball is better than now. It isn't. Was easier to assemble a team with more good players on it then. But the league now is far superior. Way more great athletes and great players. How many great foreign players are there now? That alone is enough to show how much better the league is today. You are a smart guy which makes it surprising you think the league used to have better players. Like I said many other old schoolers think so to. It just is not correct in Any way, shape or form.

[Dean Smith]

I feel many make the mistake you are dean. The heat are indeed far superior athletes than those guys you mention. Not even remotely close. And going to the Norris cole comparison card is absurd. He isn't even their better point guard. Charmers way more athletic and a good solid defensive point. Common mistake many people that think old school basketball is better than now. It isn't. Was easier to assemble a team with more good players on it then. But the league now is far superior. Way more great athletes and great players. How many great foreign players are there now? That alone is enough to show how much better the league is today. You are a smart guy which makes it surprising you think the league used to have better players. Like I said many other old schoolers think so to. It just is not correct in Any way, shape or form.

We can disagree. I don't think they had better players then but I don't think the athletic ability is that much better today. What I do think is the number of quality big men was off the charts compared to today.

[Norm Peterson]

Reason #2355...

 

He looks really butch in that picture.

[colhusker]

I will add this little bit to it.

 

How about the coaches in  7 games?

 

Pat Riley or Phil Jackson vs Erik Spoelstra, that might be the biggest difference in the whole thing.

 

What would Phil be saying in the press to get the games called like he would like?  And how would he be gettin ginto Le

Bron's head right now?  That might have been the best part of these games. 

I'll take Red Auberbach for the win!

[Fullbacksympathy]

 

First of all, Dean, you have awesome posts... but I gotta refute some of this stuff.

 

Those who say there is no comparison between athletes then and now either are too young or have short memories. Let's look at the Lakers. Magic played mostly around the 260 mark.

 

Take off 40 pounds.  He entered the league at 215.  He gained 35 lbs when he got HIV.  Even then, he still didn't quite weigh 260, so that's just not true.  Lebron had him by 40-50lbs.

 

Bryon Scott was an athlete, James Worthy - athlete and his quickness would set him apart. Michael Cooper was skinny but an athletic freak. Orlando Woolridge was older when he played with the Lakers and he could still dunk the ball 11 x's in 10 seconds. Jabar was a 7'2 athlete.

 

Byron Scott and James Worthy were good athletes, but they aren't even in Wade's stratosphere.  Kareem had the greatest shot in basketball history, so I'll give you that.

 

Let's say you put Labron on Magic and Scott & Wade cancle each other out.

 

I can't say that, because Wade would drop 40 on Scott and Lebron would destroy Magic's 220lb frame, especially with handchecking.

 

The Heat have no one who could run with Worthy and deal with him in the post.

 

Worthy couldn't run with Wade.

 

AC Green was basically a slightly shorter Bosh & Kareem averages 30 in a short series. Plus you don't want to go to the second unit. Expansion has had an affect. Depending on the year the Lakers bring on Mychael Thompson or Bob MacAdoo, both are head and shoulders better than anyone the Heat can put on to start the game.

 

AC Green and Chris Anderson cancel each other out maybe, although I'd lean toward the latter who is an All-NBA defender.  Kareem was a beast, but not in his prime on that team.  Bosh would've pulled him out of the lane.  Definitely lean toward Kareem though.

 

 

I personaly think the Spurs team of Moore, Gillmore, & Gervin with the Bruise Brothers who never won a title in the 80's win multiple today. What they said about Gervin was right, you can't stop him you can only hope to cantain him. Who guards the 7'4 athlete & Moore is so under appreciated. He put up quadruple doubles.

 

Didn't see these guys play.

 

The difference in the eras are in the post. There is no comparison between the number of quality big men then and now. How do the Heat deal with Malone and Hakeem? They don't. I don't see how anyone who can be objective will refuse to admit that the Heat struggle against good big men and there were so many more or them then.

 

I agree with this point, although as we have seen the past two years, bigs are slow.  The game is so much faster now--everyone is Showtime.  Game 7 tonight showed that the big man can't run for 7 games.

 

Now you can argue this, but I don't think James has the mentality to compete against that era. Bird made Magic and vice versa. The first time Labron goes to the basket against McFithy & McNasty he gets a rude awakening. I think those teams that were so much deeper than today's teams beat the hell out of him first physically & then mentally. I don't think he could mentally take getting taken down time & time again. He still has an excuse for everything. He is a great player but not the class. The teams of the 80's and 90's swarm them, run them and then most importantly kill them in the post.

 

I will argue it.  If MJ is considered the greatest ever, consider the fact that he was 1-11 in the playoffs before Pippen and played with guys like Gervin, Woolridge and Oakley should say something.  Was he just not mentally tough enough to get past the Pistons?  A young Lebron, on the other hand, willed his worthless teammates on the Cavs to a finals appearance by himself (beating KG and Boston), then got to another one his first year in Miami.  Now he's putting together the best back-to-back individual season in league history.  Lastly, if Lebron comes down the lane against the players of that era, he would dunk on their heads and leave them in pain because he weighs more than their center.  I concede the big man argument, but I don't think the bigs of any era can catch the speed of these guys.  As I said, he's flat out better than MJ at this point in his career.  If Jordan was mentally tough, Lebron is tougher.

We are going to have to disagree. Wade doesn't drop 40 on Scott. He would be guarded by Scott, Worthy, & Cooper mostly & they wear him down.

 

Definitely more depth with so many fewer teams back then... if the league was the same size, depth couldn't be an argument.  I get your point though.

 

Worthy runs with Wade all day & they have no one who can guard him in the post.

 

I think Chris Anderson could guard Worthy, and run with him.  I don't think Worthy or any Lakers had the quickness to guard Wade.  Kobe couldn't even guard Wade in his prime, and until Lebron came along as the greatest athletic specimen in history, Kobe was the closest we had to Jordan's athleticism. 

 

I can't care how big you are, if you get in the air & someone hits you, you go down.

 

It goes both ways.  It's not like Lebron is afraid of confrontation.  He would punk those skinny boys.  Wade at 6'4" weighs as much as Worthy did at 6'9".  Lebron weighs more than Kareem did.

 

& your confused about those guys playing with Jordan, they didn't.

 

I may not be old, but I can do research.  Oakley played for Chicago from 85-88.  Woolridge played for Chicago from 81-86.  Gervin played for Chicago from 85-86.  So, actually, MJ had them all ON THE SAME TEAM at one point and still couldn't get anywhere in the playoffs.

 

& I don't think Jordan was the greatest ever. I don't see what criteria you can use to justify that.

 

Who is the greatest?  I think it's Lebron. 

 

But that's another discussion. But Jordan has Labron in tears before game 3 in my opinion that is.

 

Jordan couldn't guard Lebron.  He'd get destroyed in the post.  Pippen--who was a better defender--would've given Lebron more trouble, but still couldn't handle his weight.  Jordan would shut down Wade though.

 

[Fullbacksympathy]

I will add this little bit to it.

 

How about the coaches in  7 games?

 

Pat Riley or Phil Jackson vs Erik Spoelstra, that might be the biggest difference in the whole thing.

 

What would Phil be saying in the press to get the games called like he would like?  And how would he be gettin ginto Le

Bron's head right now?  That might have been the best part of these games. 

 

I thought about this while watching the Heat-Pacers series.  No way that goes to game 7 with Phil.  Should be interesting to see how Pop approaches the Heat.  I'd actually take Pop over Phil.  He's done way more with way less.

[Dean Smith]

 

 

First of all, Dean, you have awesome posts... but I gotta refute some of this stuff.

 

Those who say there is no comparison between athletes then and now either are too young or have short memories. Let's look at the Lakers. Magic played mostly around the 260 mark.

 

Take off 40 pounds.  He entered the league at 215.  He gained 35 lbs when he got HIV.  Even then, he still didn't quite weigh 260, so that's just not true.  Lebron had him by 40-50lbs.

 

Bryon Scott was an athlete, James Worthy - athlete and his quickness would set him apart. Michael Cooper was skinny but an athletic freak. Orlando Woolridge was older when he played with the Lakers and he could still dunk the ball 11 x's in 10 seconds. Jabar was a 7'2 athlete.

 

Byron Scott and James Worthy were good athletes, but they aren't even in Wade's stratosphere.  Kareem had the greatest shot in basketball history, so I'll give you that.

 

Let's say you put Labron on Magic and Scott & Wade cancle each other out.

 

I can't say that, because Wade would drop 40 on Scott and Lebron would destroy Magic's 220lb frame, especially with handchecking.

 

The Heat have no one who could run with Worthy and deal with him in the post.

 

Worthy couldn't run with Wade.

 

AC Green was basically a slightly shorter Bosh & Kareem averages 30 in a short series. Plus you don't want to go to the second unit. Expansion has had an affect. Depending on the year the Lakers bring on Mychael Thompson or Bob MacAdoo, both are head and shoulders better than anyone the Heat can put on to start the game.

 

AC Green and Chris Anderson cancel each other out maybe, although I'd lean toward the latter who is an All-NBA defender.  Kareem was a beast, but not in his prime on that team.  Bosh would've pulled him out of the lane.  Definitely lean toward Kareem though.

 

 

I personaly think the Spurs team of Moore, Gillmore, & Gervin with the Bruise Brothers who never won a title in the 80's win multiple today. What they said about Gervin was right, you can't stop him you can only hope to cantain him. Who guards the 7'4 athlete & Moore is so under appreciated. He put up quadruple doubles.

 

Didn't see these guys play.

 

The difference in the eras are in the post. There is no comparison between the number of quality big men then and now. How do the Heat deal with Malone and Hakeem? They don't. I don't see how anyone who can be objective will refuse to admit that the Heat struggle against good big men and there were so many more or them then.

 

I agree with this point, although as we have seen the past two years, bigs are slow.  The game is so much faster now--everyone is Showtime.  Game 7 tonight showed that the big man can't run for 7 games.

 

Now you can argue this, but I don't think James has the mentality to compete against that era. Bird made Magic and vice versa. The first time Labron goes to the basket against McFithy & McNasty he gets a rude awakening. I think those teams that were so much deeper than today's teams beat the hell out of him first physically & then mentally. I don't think he could mentally take getting taken down time & time again. He still has an excuse for everything. He is a great player but not the class. The teams of the 80's and 90's swarm them, run them and then most importantly kill them in the post.

 

I will argue it.  If MJ is considered the greatest ever, consider the fact that he was 1-11 in the playoffs before Pippen and played with guys like Gervin, Woolridge and Oakley should say something.  Was he just not mentally tough enough to get past the Pistons?  A young Lebron, on the other hand, willed his worthless teammates on the Cavs to a finals appearance by himself (beating KG and Boston), then got to another one his first year in Miami.  Now he's putting together the best back-to-back individual season in league history.  Lastly, if Lebron comes down the lane against the players of that era, he would dunk on their heads and leave them in pain because he weighs more than their center.  I concede the big man argument, but I don't think the bigs of any era can catch the speed of these guys.  As I said, he's flat out better than MJ at this point in his career.  If Jordan was mentally tough, Lebron is tougher.

 

We are going to have to disagree. Wade doesn't drop 40 on Scott. He would be guarded by Scott, Worthy, & Cooper mostly & they wear him down.

 

Definitely more depth with so many fewer teams back then... if the league was the same size, depth couldn't be an argument.  I get your point though. My last response because you are not going to convince me and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to conviince you. All you youngn's have no idea ho good of a defender michael cooper was.

 

Worthy runs with Wade all day & they have no one who can guard him in the post.

 

I think Chris Anderson could guard Worthy, and run with him.  I don't think Worthy or any Lakers had the quickness to guard Wade.  Kobe couldn't even guard Wade in his prime, and until Lebron came along as the greatest athletic specimen in history, Kobe was the closest we had to Jordan's athleticism.  Chris Anderson couldn't hold Worthy's jock. James is way too quick and the Birdman should hope that Worthy beats him down the floor because it would be embarassing what would happen to him in the post.

 

I can't care how big you are, if you get in the air & someone hits you, you go down.

 

It goes both ways.  It's not like Lebron is afraid of confrontation.  He would punk those skinny boys.  Wade at 6'4" weighs as much as Worthy did at 6'9".  Lebron weighs more than Kareem did.  It does go both ways but those boys were used to it and prepared to handle it. I have never been impressed with Labron's mental toughness. Great frame and ability but I think they get in his head.

 

& your confused about those guys playing with Jordan, they didn't.

 

I may not be old, but I can do research.  Oakley played for Chicago from 85-88.  Woolridge played for Chicago from 81-86.  Gervin played for Chicago from 85-86.  So, actually, MJ had them all ON THE SAME TEAM at one point and still couldn't get anywhere in the playoffs. I didn't researh. I know Oakey was there early with MJ, I sort of remember Woolridge and Gervin's best years were in the ABA, he was done by the time he got to Chicago. But I think that is evidence that Jordan was not the greatest.

 

& I don't think Jordan was the greatest ever. I don't see what criteria you can use to justify that.

 

Who is the greatest?  I think it's Lebron.  Until the next big thing comes along. I think everyone has way too short of a memory. By what criteria do you want to use? Best scorer is Wilt & Jabar, biggest winner is Russel, best overall statistically is the Big O but now we are trying to compare era's again.

 

But that's another discussion. But Jordan has Labron in tears before game 3 in my opinion that is.

 

Jordan couldn't guard Lebron.  He'd get destroyed in the post.  Pippen--who was a better defender--would've given Lebron more trouble, but still couldn't handle his weight.  Jordan would shut down Wade though.   I really like Wade but even though bigger, no better than Joe Dumars. I think part of what made Michael great was he was an ass, completely subjective but Labron is so immature Jordan would kill him size and all, but the Bulls would probably put Rodman on him anyway.

 

 

[Huskerpapa]

Wow, the colors in this thread are eye popping. 

 

That said, I think the way the game is played today is so much different than in the 70's through the mid-90's.  An athlete cannot display their vast array of talent today due to the physical nature of play.  I am not sure that you could enjoy the artistic sky hoop of Kareem today, because somebody would knock him on his a*s, and it would be hit and miss if a foul would be called.  Magic and
Bird would not be able to work the floor like they once did, because there would be constant contact and the open space is no longer there. 

 

As I mentioned early, I do not like the physical game as much as I liked the artistic approach to the game.  So again, my wish is that the game simply be called like it was intended to be called.  If that were to happen, I may be able to once again, go back and watch the game that I once enjoyed.

[KZRider]

Wow, the colors in this thread are eye popping. 

 

That said, I think the way the game is played today is so much different than in the 70's through the mid-90's.  An athlete cannot display their vast array of talent today due to the physical nature of play.  I am not sure that you could enjoy the artistic sky hoop of Kareem today, because somebody would knock him on his a*s, and it would be hit and miss if a foul would be called.  Magic and

Bird would not be able to work the floor like they once did, because there would be constant contact and the open space is no longer there. 

 

As I mentioned early, I do not like the physical game as much as I liked the artistic approach to the game.  So again, my wish is that the game simply be called like it was intended to be called.  If that were to happen, I may be able to once again, go back and watch the game that I once enjoyed.

 

While I can appreciate that players can run faster and jump higher, the game itself is a much poorer offering to my way of thinking. However, I'm more attracted to strategies and finesse in sports than raw power. I'm sure there are many who would disagree with that. It has led to my not bothering to watch the NBA at all. Haven't seen more than a few minutes of a televised game in quite a few years.

[Fullbacksympathy]

I think the biggest misconception is that players were tougher back in the day.  No way.  The game is so much more rigorous now because less fouls are called and everyone is so much stronger.  Personally, I think that makes it more interesting to watch.  I like the challenge the refs have to deal with.  Drama everywhere.

[Silverbacked1]

That is why the time it would be played in would make a huge difference.

 

If they called it like the 70's or 80's today guys would foul out too quickly and then it would be starters vs backups and the old guys win. Plus the younger guys wouldn't come out of the locker room if they gad to wear the shorts they wore back then.

 

BUT if it called like it is now, I think the younger guys might win.  It is hard to adjust to the way the game is called if you have never played any games that way.

 

p.s. this is one of the best and fun discussion we have had on here in a long time, maybe ever.

[bobcat402]

i think the toughness concept is a misconception all together, its not the young guys of today's age fault that they dont have to travel or wear the sub standered equipment of the past they handle their buisness with what they have, but than again lets not assume the players from back in the day could hold up to the standards, of superior size, stregnth, weight training, resistance training, and nutrition of todays game, or dreaded long road trips like San Antonio's rodeo trip, or the clips and lakers Grammy trip, or for that matter just the overal play. after reading roughly 4 pages of this topic im beginning to see that im in the minority of posters that prefer the NBA game to college...maybe Royal Fan is with me, but for me i much rather enjoy NBA basketball.. i also apply most of my arguments from my father who has told me numerous times that the game is much higher quality in athletic ability and power than when he played, and the same sentiment applies to football and this is coming from a guy who played in the NFL

[hhcmatt]

The teams of the Bird-Magic Era are going to have better rosters.

We're talking about 22-24 teams vs 30 teams.  We're also talking salary caps now.

The 6th man from a team in the 80s is a starter for a different team this year.

Look no further than the Thunder who felt they had to deal Harden because it would give them too many big dollar stars.

Would the Showtime Lakers be able to pay Kareem-Magic-Worthy and also AC Green and Byron Scott in today's NBA?

 

Thus, a healthy LeBron-Wade-Bosh combo will easily hold their own with the best three from other eras but the rest of their team won't.

[bobcat402]

last nights game was a tough one...LeBron played pretty much like Magic and somehow, the talking heads tried to say it wasnt enough somehow....i dont know how you play better than 18-18-10 but whatever, Battier is killing them right now, and it dosnt help that Bosh is just shrinking to the challenge i mean he had a good game but he needs to get more physical. And than chalmers....i dont know im done with him,every game, or for that matter his a jekyl and hyde peformance over and over again, even if they win this series im not gonna be suprised if chalmers, millier (who needs to be amestied, love him but his contract is an albatross) and anthony all shld be gone and those mintues need to go to Birdman and cole, and the player they add (a physical big man who gets spot mintues)

[Norm Peterson]

Battier was practically the difference in the series with OKC last year.  OKC would hold down the fort on pretty much everything else and then Battier comes along and nails a three.  Like where'd he learn that?  Wish he'd have played more like last night. 

[jimmykc]

Don't get me started, men. NBA players from the old days more than made up for size and nutritional differences with sheer nastiness and dirty play. The guys playing today would never know what hit them, even that "freak of nature" LJ. Tree Rollins once caused Danny Ainge to miss games by biting him. Kevin Washington almost killed Rudy Tomjanavich on the court with a punch in the face. They say Jim Loscutoff of the Celtics used to warm up before the game by chopping down an oak tree with his bare hands. And does anyone want to bet that James would be doing much dunking over Wilt? Chuck Norris broke down in tears after a tryout with the Celtics. (Ok, I made that one up, but you get the point)

[Silverbacked1]

I did watch half of the 3rd quarter and all of the 4th last night.

 

And I will say if all games where played and called like that, I would become an NBA fan.

 

It was just a good, well played game.  No flopping, bitching about calls, no showmanship.  Just good solid basketball.

[uneblinstu]

I watched the fourth quarter of game 1 and that shot by Parker was one of the most audacious shots i've ever seen.

[royalfan]

Battier was practically the difference in the series with OKC last year.  OKC would hold down the fort on pretty much everything else and then Battier comes along and nails a three.  Like where'd he learn that?  Wish he'd have played more like last night. 

Scott Brooks was the difference.  Just an awful coach.  He mangled that series.