I've been wanting to make an X's and O's post...

[basketballjones]

Anyone have a subject or something they'd like me to cover? Guess it doesn't even have to be X's and O's - maybe even just general coaching decisions or philosophies that you've always been interested in. 

I just enjoy doing these, but if there's no interest, it aint no thang

[bigFRED]

How about the best press breaks used to beat a 2-2-1 and diamond press? I've coached high school in variances 3 years in a row and have changed my philosophy on it all 3 years because it feels like it can always be better.

[Norm Peterson]

8 minutes ago, basketballjones said:

Anyone have a subject or something they'd like me to cover? Guess it doesn't even have to be X's and O's - maybe even just general coaching decisions or philosophies that you've always been interested in. 

I just enjoy doing these, but if there's no interest, it aint no thang

 

I'd like to know what you'd do to make our 3-point defense stronger without totally overhauling the pack-line approach and starting from square one.

[basketballjones]

55 minutes ago, noahjb24 said:

How about the best press breaks used to beat a 2-2-1 and diamond press? I've coached high school in variances 3 years in a row and have changed my philosophy on it all 3 years because it feels like it can always be better.

2-2-1 Presses = in my opinion, are designed to slow you down - not necessarily to get turnovers. However, they end up providing a lot of "silent-turnovers" as they force you into early, "fools gold" shots. Have you tried overloading a side? I've had a ton of success running the in-bounder on a "flag route" where he goes from inbounding it to the sideline, above the guy he in-bounded it to - then having your ball side wing flash up. I will try to draw something up for you. If you PM me I might be able to email you something. If you are having trouble with a 2-2-1 press because it's causing turnovers - then it sounds like you're having more trouble with fundamentals/skills (getting out of traps, throwing skip passes, decision making, etc...). Because a 2-2-1, if they are trapping, just physically cannot cover both the middle and the sideline - and a skip pass. 

Diamond Presses = if you're the less talented team, good-f-in-luck, haha. But seriously - guys have to make a read. In-bounder and an opposite wing need to make a read on what the "interceptor" in the diamond does. This, again, is why I like the "flag route" for your in-bounder. It forces the interceptor in the diamond to make a decision, often voiding an area that you can bring someone else in to flash into. I'll have to draw this up somehow if you aren't following. f

Let me know what you do and maybe I can give my thoughts. But I've always looked for different ways to attack this stuff - but simply put, the answer is skills and fundamentals. If a dude can make one hard ball fake, snap a pass to the other side of the court, and your guys flash to the ball - no press can stop that. 

I've always had more trouble getting my guys to relax and get some good offense going after a press. Love to hear your thoughts on that. 

[royalfan]

Always been a fan of token full court pressure, that should not compromise your defense.  We never do that.  What are the cons of doing so in your view?  I see almost all pros, especially with the 30 second shot clock.  If you can annoy them into a couple stupid turnovers, while giving them around 20 seconds to shoot it seems like a good idea. 

[basketballjones]

1 hour ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

I'd like to know what you'd do to make our 3-point defense stronger without totally overhauling the pack-line approach and starting from square one.

Earlier gap positioning and just let post guys go 1 on 1, quit doubling. 

The gap defense's backbone is early positioning. If you are hugging your guy, and see your teammate start to get beat off the dribble, and you lunge/show/help on the drive - you're going to be late with your weight going against the grain of the pass when it happens, and it's going to create a kick-out 3 or a bad close-out. But if you are early, and are in the gaps/within the pack-line, and you can stop/slow-down/dissuade the drive, it puts you in control to force the pass, and then close-out properly to your opponent. 

 

My second suggestion would be to play the percentages. If you're getting killed on 3's because you're doubling and forcing your defense to rotate. Stop doubling. Be willing to get beat by a back-to-the-basket post player. If you don't foul, they can only get two points per attempt. If you can teach competent post defense, hopefully you're able to hold the opposing player to <50%, without giving up And-1's. Force the big to beat you with back-to-the-basket moves. Obviously though, that implies you have to limit offensive rebounds and easy put-backs. 

[colhusker]

Where do you coach?

[basketballjones]

11 minutes ago, royalfan said:

Always been a fan of token full court pressure, that should not compromise your defense.  We never do that.  What are the cons of doing so in your view?  I see almost all pros, especially with the 30 second shot clock.  If you can annoy them into a couple stupid turnovers, while giving them around 20 seconds to shoot it seems like a good idea. 

Agreed. 

Have to be able to apply that pressure while still being able to get matched-up after the press is "broken." 
Also, you have to score to get into your pressure. Which NU has struggled with. 

[uneblinstu]

17 minutes ago, royalfan said:

Always been a fan of token full court pressure, that should not compromise your defense.  We never do that.  What are the cons of doing so in your view?  I see almost all pros, especially with the 30 second shot clock.  If you can annoy them into a couple stupid turnovers, while giving them around 20 seconds to shoot it seems like a good idea. 

This is a Dana Altman staple. You can do so many things off of it.

[basketballjones]

1 minute ago, colhusker said:

Where do you coach?

In my head, where I've won every game and every set has worked.

But seriously, PM me sometime and I'll discuss it. I'd like to maintain at least the most minuscule amount of privacy I have left. I think many on the board already know "who I am," although I'm not sure I do myself. 

[Dean Smith]

5 hours ago, basketballjones said:

Earlier gap positioning and just let post guys go 1 on 1, quit doubling. 

The gap defense's backbone is early positioning. If you are hugging your guy, and see your teammate start to get beat off the dribble, and you lunge/show/help on the drive - you're going to be late with your weight going against the grain of the pass when it happens, and it's going to create a kick-out 3 or a bad close-out. But if you are early, and are in the gaps/within the pack-line, and you can stop/slow-down/dissuade the drive, it puts you in control to force the pass, and then close-out properly to your opponent. 

 

My second suggestion would be to play the percentages. If you're getting killed on 3's because you're doubling and forcing your defense to rotate. Stop doubling. Be willing to get beat by a back-to-the-basket post player. If you don't foul, they can only get two points per attempt. If you can teach competent post defense, hopefully you're able to hold the opposing player to <50%, without giving up And-1's. Force the big to beat you with back-to-the-basket moves. Obviously though, that implies you have to limit offensive rebounds and easy put-backs. 

I think people get too caught up in how do I beat "this" trap as opposed to teaching players how to beat traps. There are certain dribbles such as the reverse/dropstep crossover that works against everything but the traps  that attack the  inbound pass. The techniques to step around or step through the trap are the same regardless of the trap you are facing. The are some fundamental differences between m-4-m traps and zones but everybody ends up with two trappers, two anticipators and one basket protector no matter where they start from.  You have to get one guy on the top of the trap, one guy splitting the trap and one underneath the trap for reversal. Teach those principles and then you can start your press break from most any formation. I liked starting in a 1-4 either across the freethrow line or across half court to distort their trap from the get go but there are plenty of other ways to start. 

 

Technically you aren't supposed to be able to literally pressure on defense. If they are really applying physical pressure that's a foul (and I know there will always be some missed.) The real pressure is created in your own players minds. Practices need to be harder than games. Teach the proper techniques and where we need players  to receive the ball and then make things as difficult as you can for them in practice. Allow 7 defenders or let the press get very physical. Stress your players in practice so they can be more relaxed and just execute in games. When they "know" they know how to break a press, it becomes much easier mentally for them to do so. 

[basketballjones]

2 hours ago, Dean Smith said:

I think people get too caught up in how do I beat "this" trap as opposed to teaching players how to beat traps. There are certain dribbles such as the reverse/dropstep crossover that works against everything but the traps  that attack the  inbound pass. The techniques to step around or step through the trap are the same regardless of the trap you are facing. The are some fundamental differences between m-4-m traps and zones but everybody ends up with two trappers, two anticipators and one basket protector no matter where they start from.  You have to get one guy on the top of the trap, one guy splitting the trap and one underneath the trap for reversal. Teach those principles and then you can start your press break from most any formation. I liked starting in a 1-4 either across the freethrow line or across half court to distort their trap from the get go but there are plenty of other ways to start. 

 

Technically you aren't supposed to be able to literally pressure on defense. If they are really applying physical pressure that's a foul (and I know there will always be some missed.) The real pressure is created in your own players minds. Practices need to be harder than games. Teach the proper techniques and where we need players  to receive the ball and then make things as difficult as you can for them in practice. Allow 7 defenders or let the press get very physical. Stress your players in practice so they can be more relaxed and just execute in games. When they "know" they know how to break a press, it becomes much easier mentally for them to do so. 

I’m not sure if you intended to quote the post you did, or mine specifically - but thanks for your input nonetheless. “Real pressure is created in our players minds.” That’s a good one. 

 

But as to your point, yes, all trapping pressure have to basically become the same thing at some point, so it’s all about how you handle yourself - hence why I suggested to the original question that it sounds more like a fundamentals problem than a X’s and O’s Problem. 

[Dean Smith]

1 hour ago, basketballjones said:

I’m not sure if you intended to quote the post you did, or mine specifically - but thanks for your input nonetheless. “Real pressure is created in our players minds.” That’s a good one. 

 

But as to your point, yes, all trapping pressure have to basically become the same thing at some point, so it’s all about how you handle yourself - hence why I suggested to the original question that it sounds more like a fundamentals problem than a X’s and O’s Problem. 

No it was supposed to be attached to your 2-2-1 Press post. Denny Crum with his great teams at Louisville would run that press 4 or 5 different ways. He had one where they picked one non-ball handler from his scouting reports. They would leave him open and once the ball was in his hands the team switched out of the 2-2-1 to a complete denial M-4-M and forced the non handler to bring the ball up with hard on the ball pressure.  

[royalfan]

On 11/1/2017 at 1:19 PM, uneblinstu said:

This is a Dana Altman staple. You can do so many things off of it.

Exactly right.  Very effective for him. 

[hal9000]

Preface:  This post is based solely off of last year and previous year's performances, and I'm making no references to this year's squad.

 

Jones, I have to say that the offense I come away most impressed with (at least in terms of its execution) is Michigan's.  I admit that I don't see them play much other than when we play them, but when we do it always seems like their offense is a well oiled machine.  The key seems to be how well their players move without the ball. The ball is always moving, they use screens, back door cuts, dribble drives and kick outs.  They're just so efficient at getting the ball to the open man for the shot.  It's very team oriented, assists are aplenty, and three point shots are high.  I read the Beilein runs a Princeton style offense, which I guess surprised me a little, because I always thought of it as being a slow it down, half court, low scoring offense.  But their offense seems to me to be pretty high octane (or at least it is when they play us  )  

 

Anyway, so with our offense, which is a motion oriented, dribble drive style offense, I'm sure is very team oriented too, but I don't know if it is our execution of it or what, but it seems to me that it ends up being a lot of one on one situations, and not an over abundance of kick outs or passes to open guys for the three.  I know I'm simplifying things here, but perhaps you can share your thoughts on the strengths and weaknesses of our dribble drive concept.  Are there areas where you think our execution needs improvement, or are we running it pretty good, but we're just not making our shots?  Are their any similarities to the Princeton style?  Are there things we could be doing to get guys more open shots?  

[basketballjones]

23 hours ago, hal9000 said:

Anyway, so with our offense, which is a motion oriented, dribble drive style offense, I'm sure is very team oriented too, but I don't know if it is our execution of it or what, but it seems to me that it ends up being a lot of one on one situations, and not an over abundance of kick outs or passes to open guys for the three.  I know I'm simplifying things here, but perhaps you can share your thoughts on the strengths and weaknesses of our dribble drive concept.  Are there areas where you think our execution needs improvement, or are we running it pretty good, but we're just not making our shots?  Are their any similarities to the Princeton style?  Are there things we could be doing to get guys more open shots?  

Major note - I HAVE NOT seen us play this year yet - so I could be wrong with what we are doing this year and what I’m about to us about us.

 

However, I’ve done a couple posts on this before, but we do not (or didn’t previously) run a motion based offense. In zero sense. We don’t run a no-screening dribble drive (like Kentucky and our very own Omaha Central popularized), and we don’t run a Bobby Knight, random action screening away from the ball offense. We, for the past few years, have ran primarily 1-4 high-ish based sets into Lithuanian ball screen/hand off revolving action in the half court. I despise it, but I am out of the business of criticizing coaches for their decisions. TM felt it was best for his team, so I stand by him. 

 

Bobby Knight motion Basketball is dead in 2017 because of the lack of back to the Basket post players, the skill and rules advantages drivers have, the lack of emphasis on midrange shots, and most importantly- the 3pt line. Basketball today is all about spacing, ball screens, the dribble drive, and read/react spacing/cutting based off of the dribble drive. There’s very few teams that just run a pass then screen away offense anymore. Doing that can jam up drive lanes and take away the threat of guys spaces and spot up to shoot kick out threes. Most screens (outside of a structured set) that occur “randomly” in the half court are ball screens, or backscreens by bigs designed to eliminate the help before they go ball screen. 

 

Most teams are just trying to do SOMETHING to get 2 guys guarding 1 driver or cutter, then they are kicking it out and shooting 3’s, or creating a chain reaction of drives that lead to lay ups or kickout 3’s. What Michigan/Golden State/Spurs et al do so well, is they get one guy who’s a threat going to the hoop to draw two defenders, then they immediately and correctly hit the guy who was left open, and they do not hesitate. That guy either shoots, he immediately drives to continue the draw two and kick, or he makes an extra pass as help struggles to scramble to get matched up 1 on 1. 

 

In my very humble opinion, and y’all can blast me all you want - but Creighton runs the best half court motion that I see on a regular basis. Now, they also run a ton of sets into their motion, but when they’re just creating for each other in the half court running their motion, it looks really nice. They’ve kind of mixed in the really good parts of Bill Self/Doc Sadler style 2-Game, and the principles of read/react dribble drive offense. It’s very NBA friendly.

[Dean Smith]

1 hour ago, basketballjones said:

Major note - I HAVE NOT seen us play this year yet - so I could be wrong with what we are doing this year and what I’m about to us about us.

 

However, I’ve done a couple posts on this before, but we do not (or didn’t previously) run a motion based offense. In zero sense. We don’t run a no-screening dribble drive (like Kentucky and our very own Omaha Central popularized), and we don’t run a Bobby Knight, random action screening away from the ball offense. We, for the past few years, have ran primarily 1-4 high-ish based sets into Lithuanian ball screen/hand off revolving action in the half court. I despise it, but I am out of the business of criticizing coaches for their decisions. TM felt it was best for his team, so I stand by him. 

 

Bobby Knight motion Basketball is dead in 2017 because of the lack of back to the Basket post players, the skill and rules advantages drivers have, the lack of emphasis on midrange shots, and most importantly- the 3pt line. Basketball today is all about spacing, ball screens, the dribble drive, and read/react spacing/cutting based off of the dribble drive. There’s very few teams that just run a pass then screen away offense anymore. Doing that can jam up drive lanes and take away the threat of guys spaces and spot up to shoot kick out threes. Most screens (outside of a structured set) that occur “randomly” in the half court are ball screens, or backscreens by bigs designed to eliminate the help before they go ball screen. 

 

Most teams are just trying to do SOMETHING to get 2 guys guarding 1 driver or cutter, then they are kicking it out and shooting 3’s, or creating a chain reaction of drives that lead to lay ups or kickout 3’s. What Michigan/Golden State/Spurs et al do so well, is they get one guy who’s a threat going to the hoop to draw two defenders, then they immediately and correctly hit the guy who was left open, and they do not hesitate. That guy either shoots, he immediately drives to continue the draw two and kick, or he makes an extra pass as help struggles to scramble to get matched up 1 on 1. 

 

In my very humble opinion, and y’all can blast me all you want - but Creighton runs the best half court motion that I see on a regular basis. Now, they also run a ton of sets into their motion, but when they’re just creating for each other in the half court running their motion, it looks really nice. They’ve kind of mixed in the really good parts of Bill Self/Doc Sadler style 2-Game, and the principles of read/react dribble drive offense. It’s very NBA friendly.

I have to take exception to two points. 1) Bobby Knight motion might be in hibernation but not because of lack of post players. If you watched his Steve Alford years they were doing some early mover-blocker concepts and the focus was on getting Alford the three and mid-range jump shots, not the post at all. The big problem in teaching the Knight/Pete Newell motion is that it takes too much time. Every player has to be able to read everyone else's cuts plus the ball. You have to have five players on the floor that have a very high basketball IQ to make that motion work at it's highest potential. The time it takes to teach such a motion to make it run smoothly is now not practical with the time coaches are allowed to be with players being cut over the years by the NCAA. 

 

2) I was privileged enough to have multiple occasions to hear McDermott discuss his offensive philosophy. He said because of the time needed to teach a "good" motion it was impractical to do so. The majority of what you are seeing Creighton do is running up to 50 different set plays with each of them having multiple counters to what the defense tries to do. So you might see the same play run five different times and it looks like they are doing five different things. As far as I know all of them have commonalities such as there is always at least one option for the top of the key three. These are the shots he spends the majority of the time practicing. When you take account for all the different set plays they run and all of the counter options each play has, it definately looks like they are running a motion. He feels this still doesn't take as much time to teach as a Knight motion offense and yet he has far more control over the action the offense is using at any given time because he has called the set he wants. 

[basketballjones]

9 hours ago, Dean Smith said:

I have to take exception to two points. 1) Bobby Knight motion might be in hibernation but not because of lack of post players. If you watched his Steve Alford years they were doing some early mover-blocker concepts and the focus was on getting Alford the three and mid-range jump shots, not the post at all. The big problem in teaching the Knight/Pete Newell motion is that it takes too much time. Every player has to be able to read everyone else's cuts plus the ball. You have to have five players on the floor that have a very high basketball IQ to make that motion work at it's highest potential. The time it takes to teach such a motion to make it run smoothly is now not practical with the time coaches are allowed to be with players being cut over the years by the NCAA. 

 

2) I was privileged enough to have multiple occasions to hear McDermott discuss his offensive philosophy. He said because of the time needed to teach a "good" motion it was impractical to do so. The majority of what you are seeing Creighton do is running up to 50 different set plays with each of them having multiple counters to what the defense tries to do. So you might see the same play run five different times and it looks like they are doing five different things. As far as I know all of them have commonalities such as there is always at least one option for the top of the key three. These are the shots he spends the majority of the time practicing. When you take account for all the different set plays they run and all of the counter options each play has, it definately looks like they are running a motion. He feels this still doesn't take as much time to teach as a Knight motion offense and yet he has far more control over the action the offense is using at any given time because he has called the set he wants. 

1. Well, technically, I didn't say lack of post players - I said lack of back to the basket post players. It's not taught to the dame degree anymore. So it changes what you emphasize. 

 

2. They still have a motion that is not a repetitive, revolving offense with options. As I said, they run a ton of sets/quick hitters - but those only last 3-10 seconds. After sets don't work and they go into their ball screen, 2 post working opposite of each other offense. The guards will pass and screen away, bigs will catch on perimeter and automatically swing into ball screens or hand-offs (and they do this unselfishly and without hesitations - which is why they're so good at times). 

Also - Creighton runs sets/quick hitters at specific times - if they can push in transition, they prefer to not disrupt their flow, and just get into their "motion." They run sets/quick hitters on dead balls, after made buckets where they can't get the ball out quickly, in crunch time, and if McDermott feels the pace is out of control and needs to get specific looks for specific guys. But on missed buckets or makes where they can get it out quickly - they BURST into their offensive transition lanes. Both wings go straight to the opposite corners, and a big runs instantly to the rim. If their point guard can get attacking right off the transition, they rarely get into a set - it's just their half-court "motion." Which is very mover-blocker oriented. Bigs are the only ones allowed to set ball screens, post, or dribble-swing into ball screens. Guards can dribble hand-off at times, and they can pass and screen away. The posts work in tandems to stay away from each other, and roll/replace off one another. 

Something else cool they do that I have tried (but failed miserably) to incorporate is their "automatics" in their transition game. For instance, if one of the 4 or 5's don't get the rebound but a guard who busts out does - the 4 and 5 will stay back and set trailing double/staggered ball screens, with one rolling hard and one popping for 3 (or immediately continuing their swing game into a ball screen or dribble hand off). 

Nonetheless - you're correct - they have about 10,000 sets. And I'm continually amazed at how they execute them. 

[HuskerFever]

On 11/1/2017 at 12:20 PM, basketballjones said:

I've been wanting to make an X's and O's post...

 

I'll get it started for you.

 

___|___|___

___|___|___

 X  |     |

[basketballjones]

3 minutes ago, HuskerFever said:

 

I'll get it started for you.

 

___|___|___

___|___|___

 X  |     |

___|___|___

___|___|___

 X  | O |

 

[Norm Peterson]

15 minutes ago, basketballjones said:

___|___|___

___|___|___

 X  | O |

 

 

Oooh. Huge gamble play by basketballjones.  This could hurt.

[HuskerFever]

17 minutes ago, basketballjones said:

___|___|___

___|___|___

 X  | O |

 

 

___|___| X

___|___|___

 X  | O |

[aphilso1]

1 hour ago, HuskerFever said:

 

___|___| X

___|___|___

 X  | O |

 

Dude...what was that move?!? 

 

X in the middle would've given you an automatic victory!  Now you're just praying Jones makes a mistake.

Edited November 7, 2017 by aphilso1

[aphilso1]

1 hour ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

Oooh. Huge gamble play by basketballjones.  This could hurt.

 

The gamble paid off, Fever let him off the hook.  Looks like we're heading for good ol' fashioned tie.

 

#I'monpinsandneedles

[Norm Peterson]

2 minutes ago, aphilso1 said:

 

The gamble paid off, Fever let him off the hook.  Looks like we're heading for good ol' fashioned tie.

 

#I'monpinsandneedles

 

That's right, Phil.  Fever went to two corners a little early.  

 

Let's see if Jones can right the ship.  Don't want to jinx it but there's an obvious move to preserve a tie and send this one into overtime.  Anything else would be a really bad move.

 

#howbadcanitget?

#worsttictactoegameever?