NCAA Tournie Thread

[George Beadle]

Craft was within the restricted area.  There might only be a line painted on the court but a plane extends upwards from that line, which Craft's foot was clearly breaching (and if the rule only explicitly states that a foot cannot be physically on the line, it is flawed).  Also, he was a little late.

 

Also, also, I hate Aaron Craft, his rosy cheeks, his media adulation, and the special set of rules within which he is allowed to play defense, so my opinions might be slightly biased.

[uneblinstu]

He wasn't late, he had position before the ISU player left the ground.  He was in the restircted area.  Missed call in a split second.  Happens to every team throughout the game.  

 

The bigger issue to me is that taking a charge isn't playing defense.  It's a bad rule that needs to be overhauled.

[ajb5856]

The refs need to be able to go to the monitors to look at players being within the restricted area or not. How are they supposed to see that? There's usually about 16 shoes down there in one of those situations. Not to mention, and if you watch the replay on that call you will see what I'm talking about, the ref isn't staring down at the floor at shoes and that line, he is watching the play. He is watching the bodies collide. It is not possible to clearly watch the floor/line and the play going on above the floor. It's driving me nuts that they keep rehashing this like the ref made some huge mistake. Yeah his foot was hovering above the line and now we know the rule says that counts as being within the restricted area and should have been a block. But if they call it a block we probably hear argument that Craft had good position and that it should have been a charge. It's a block/charge call. Those go either way. It's not like te refs went to the monitors and counted a shot at the buzzer that wasn't out of hand yet. Another thing and then I'm done. Those whole thing about the restricted area being a plane and his foot hovering...that needs to be looked at. I mean, it's not a plane. If it is, where does the plane stop being a plane? If you set up with both feet outside the line, your posterior is probably hovering over the line. Then what?

[uneblinstu]

Nah, they just need to change the rule.  Get rid of the restricted area all together, make it a foul on the defense.  Right now, the defense doesn't need to defend, they just have to beat the ball handler to the spot and stand there.  Make it a defensive foul, tighten up a couple of other areas (like jump ball scrums, traveling and hand checking on the perimeter) and you've got a lot of your issues taken care of.

[George Beadle]

If it is, where does the plane stop being a plane? If you set up with both feet outside the line, your posterior is probably hovering over the line. Then what?

In my opinion, it should be a charge.  However, your point highlights the lunacy of debating block/charge calls - except in the most obvious of situations, in realtime it will be left up to the whims of the official making the call.

 

Which is why I think it is more important to get back to hating on Aaron Craft.  I might have picked Ohio State to advance to the Final Four but that doesn't mean that I cannot voraciously cheer against Craft every game as that bracket is likely completely busted for anyone who didn't pick OSU anyway.

[49r]

Oladipo. Clutch.

[FredsSlacks]

Nah, they just need to change the rule.  Get rid of the restricted area all together, make it a foul on the defense.  Right now, the defense doesn't need to defend, they just have to beat the ball handler to the spot and stand there.  Make it a defensive foul, tighten up a couple of other areas (like jump ball scrums, traveling and hand checking on the perimeter) and you've got a lot of your issues taken care of.

You can't completely get rid of charges or you would have guys plowing over people to get to the basket. What needs to be changed is when someone takes a charge while the offensive guy is the in the air. You can't just slip in front of a guy a split second before he is about to go up for a layup. It is impossible for the offensive guy to avoid contact when he is in the air.

[uneblinstu]

Nah, they just need to change the rule.  Get rid of the restricted area all together, make it a foul on the defense.  Right now, the defense doesn't need to defend, they just have to beat the ball handler to the spot and stand there.  Make it a defensive foul, tighten up a couple of other areas (like jump ball scrums, traveling and hand checking on the perimeter) and you've got a lot of your issues taken care of.

You can't completely get rid of charges or you would have guys plowing over people to get to the basket. What needs to be changed is when someone takes a charge while the offensive guy is the in the air. You can't just slip in front of a guy a split second before he is about to go up for a layup. It is impossible for the offensive guy to avoid contact when he is in the air.

I don't think so.  Defenders would adjust.  There wouldn't be be anyone standing under the rim or sliding under the ball handler from the under side of the lane.  Defenders would actually have to defend.  There could be an adjustment to compensate if necessary, but the Craft play or even the one on Zeller today, neither actually played defense, they stood there and collapsed when contact came.  Play defense, contest the ball, don't play tackling dummy.

[Silverbacked1]

The refs need to be able to go to the monitors to look at players being within the restricted area or not. How are they supposed to see that? There's usually about 16 shoes down there in one of those situations. Not to mention, and if you watch the replay on that call you will see what I'm talking about, the ref isn't staring down at the floor at shoes and that line, he is watching the play. He is watching the bodies collide. It is not possible to clearly watch the floor/line and the play going on above the floor. It's driving me nuts that they keep rehashing this like the ref made some huge mistake. Yeah his foot was hovering above the line and now we know the rule says that counts as being within the restricted area and should have been a block. But if they call it a block we probably hear argument that Craft had good position and that it should have been a charge. It's a block/charge call. Those go either way. It's not like te refs went to the monitors and counted a shot at the buzzer that wasn't out of hand yet. Another thing and then I'm done. Those whole thing about the restricted area being a plane and his foot hovering...that needs to be looked at. I mean, it's not a plane. If it is, where does the plane stop being a plane? If you set up with both feet outside the line, your posterior is probably hovering over the line. Then what?

To add to that, if my feet where on the line my posterior would most likely be over the other side of the line on the other side of the half circle. 

[cipsucks]

To add to that, if my feet where on the line my posterior would most likely be over the other side of the line on the other side of the half circle. 

That ain't nothin'.  Almeida's feet and posterior could be in different time zones. 

[Dean Smith]

 

Nah, they just need to change the rule.  Get rid of the restricted area all together, make it a foul on the defense.  Right now, the defense doesn't need to defend, they just have to beat the ball handler to the spot and stand there.  Make it a defensive foul, tighten up a couple of other areas (like jump ball scrums, traveling and hand checking on the perimeter) and you've got a lot of your issues taken care of.

You can't completely get rid of charges or you would have guys plowing over people to get to the basket. What needs to be changed is when someone takes a charge while the offensive guy is the in the air. You can't just slip in front of a guy a split second before he is about to go up for a layup. It is impossible for the offensive guy to avoid contact when he is in the air.

I don't think so.  Defenders would adjust.  There wouldn't be be anyone standing under the rim or sliding under the ball handler from the under side of the lane.  Defenders would actually have to defend.  There could be an adjustment to compensate if necessary, but the Craft play or even the one on Zeller today, neither actually played defense, they stood there and collapsed when contact came.  Play defense, contest the ball, don't play tackling dummy.

The line was designed to keep people from standing under the basket and getting rewarded. Forcing people to play defense as you say. Imo if you get rid of the charge rule the defense couldn't adjust. When you needed freethrows your point could just come down and ram into his defender and you're on your way to the foul line. Working hard and beating an offensive player to a spot IS playing defense. And the idea of someone coming from the under side of the lane, they have a name for that - help defense.

[ajb5856]

Nah, they just need to change the rule. Get rid of the restricted area all together, make it a foul on the defense. Right now, the defense doesn't need to defend, they just have to beat the ball handler to the spot and stand there. Make it a defensive foul, tighten up a couple of other areas (like jump ball scrums, traveling and hand checking on the perimeter) and you've got a lot of your issues taken care of.

You can't completely get rid of charges or you would have guys plowing over people to get to the basket. What needs to be changed is when someone takes a charge while the offensive guy is the in the air. You can't just slip in front of a guy a split second before he is about to go up for a layup. It is impossible for the offensive guy to avoid contact when he is in the air.

I don't think so. Defenders would adjust. There wouldn't be be anyone standing under the rim or sliding under the ball handler from the under side of the lane. Defenders would actually have to defend. There could be an adjustment to compensate if necessary, but the Craft play or even the one on Zeller today, neither actually played defense, they stood there and collapsed when contact came. Play defense, contest the ball, don't play tackling dummy.

The line was designed to keep people from standing under the basket and getting rewarded. Forcing people to play defense as you say. Imo if you get rid of the charge rule the defense couldn't adjust. When you needed freethrows your point could just come down and ram into his defender and you're on your way to the foul line. Working hard and beating an offensive player to a spot IS playing defense. And the idea of someone coming from the under side of the lane, they have a name for that - help defense.

They would still call offensive fouls on off arm action and contact initiated by the offensive player. The foul where a secondary defender (Craft) sees a player start to drive so he runs across the floor to get in his path and prepare to flop backwards would be eliminated. It's a great idea. The offensive fouls where the defender is moving his feet, sliding along with the ball handler could still be called. Those are called about twice a year and the commentators always tell you that the defender doesn't have to be set. Since the offensive guy initiated contact, dipped his shoulder, etc its still a foul. Just the concept of setting up to take a charge would be eliminated.

[trickey]

It seems interesting to remember and appropriate to acknowledge that I (and others) should reconsider giving the 2011-2012 Huskers significant slack for only beating FGCU by a Talley bucket with 10 seconds left...51-50.

I remember thinking that point guard had some flashes of great passes, but who the heck is FGCU.

They have obviously improved significantly in the last year and a half....may we make such a fast move!

I wish them luck and I hope they keep winning (since they already took out my final four team in that region.

 

http://www.huskers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=24&DB_OEM_ID=100&ATCLID=205343930

[Silverbacked1]

Is it me or is this Duke/Creighton game terrible?

 

No body can make a shot, and when they drive they can't make a lay-up.

 

I don't think it is good defense, I think neither team is very good.

[a0t0w0]

Is it me or is this Duke/Creighton game terrible?

 

No body can make a shot, and when they drive they can't make a lay-up.

 

I don't think it is good defense, I think neither team is very good.

 

It's not just you...

[hskr4life]

UGH... I had Ole Miss in one of my brackets as a Cinderealla...

[a0t0w0]

Do Minnesota fans still have an excuse to call for Tubby's head?

[nustudent]

It seems interesting to remember and appropriate to acknowledge that I (and others) should reconsider giving the 2011-2012 Huskers significant slack for only beating FGCU by a Talley bucket with 10 seconds left...51-50.

I remember thinking that point guard had some flashes of great passes, but who the heck is FGCU.

They have obviously improved significantly in the last year and a half....may we make such a fast move!

I wish them luck and I hope they keep winning (since they already took out my final four team in that region.

 

http://www.huskers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=24&DB_OEM_ID=100&ATCLID=205343930

2011-2012 FGCU in the non-con is not the same team as a 2012-2013 FGCU in the postseason.  The critcism was just.

[uneblinstu]

 

 

Nah, they just need to change the rule.  Get rid of the restricted area all together, make it a foul on the defense.  Right now, the defense doesn't need to defend, they just have to beat the ball handler to the spot and stand there.  Make it a defensive foul, tighten up a couple of other areas (like jump ball scrums, traveling and hand checking on the perimeter) and you've got a lot of your issues taken care of.

You can't completely get rid of charges or you would have guys plowing over people to get to the basket. What needs to be changed is when someone takes a charge while the offensive guy is the in the air. You can't just slip in front of a guy a split second before he is about to go up for a layup. It is impossible for the offensive guy to avoid contact when he is in the air.

I don't think so.  Defenders would adjust.  There wouldn't be be anyone standing under the rim or sliding under the ball handler from the under side of the lane.  Defenders would actually have to defend.  There could be an adjustment to compensate if necessary, but the Craft play or even the one on Zeller today, neither actually played defense, they stood there and collapsed when contact came.  Play defense, contest the ball, don't play tackling dummy.

The line was designed to keep people from standing under the basket and getting rewarded. Forcing people to play defense as you say. Imo if you get rid of the charge rule the defense couldn't adjust. When you needed freethrows your point could just come down and ram into his defender and you're on your way to the foul line. Working hard and beating an offensive player to a spot IS playing defense. And the idea of someone coming from the under side of the lane, they have a name for that - help defense.

Then create a rule that doesn't allow you to lower the shoulder.  They're making rules like that all the time.  They could do it here, too.  Make that the offensive foul, dropping the shoulder and ramming the defender.  But to slide over stiff as a board and not make a "basketball play" isn't how the game is supposed to be played.

 

Semantically, you're right, it's within the rules, but it's not basketball, or at least it shouldn't be.  It's devolved to the point where a guy who comes over to "defend" so late that offensive player has no chance to react isn't what the game is supposed to be.  It's a game of action and reaction.  It's a rigid play, basketball isn't supposed to be rigid, it's supposed to be a fluid sport.

 

What Craft did was not work hard to beat him to the spot.  What Zeller did after his turnover was not beat his guy to the spot.  Both plays manifestation of a bad rule and the devolution of the sport, IMO.

[uneblinstu]

 

 

 

Nah, they just need to change the rule. Get rid of the restricted area all together, make it a foul on the defense. Right now, the defense doesn't need to defend, they just have to beat the ball handler to the spot and stand there. Make it a defensive foul, tighten up a couple of other areas (like jump ball scrums, traveling and hand checking on the perimeter) and you've got a lot of your issues taken care of.

You can't completely get rid of charges or you would have guys plowing over people to get to the basket. What needs to be changed is when someone takes a charge while the offensive guy is the in the air. You can't just slip in front of a guy a split second before he is about to go up for a layup. It is impossible for the offensive guy to avoid contact when he is in the air.

I don't think so. Defenders would adjust. There wouldn't be be anyone standing under the rim or sliding under the ball handler from the under side of the lane. Defenders would actually have to defend. There could be an adjustment to compensate if necessary, but the Craft play or even the one on Zeller today, neither actually played defense, they stood there and collapsed when contact came. Play defense, contest the ball, don't play tackling dummy.

The line was designed to keep people from standing under the basket and getting rewarded. Forcing people to play defense as you say. Imo if you get rid of the charge rule the defense couldn't adjust. When you needed freethrows your point could just come down and ram into his defender and you're on your way to the foul line. Working hard and beating an offensive player to a spot IS playing defense. And the idea of someone coming from the under side of the lane, they have a name for that - help defense.

They would still call offensive fouls on off arm action and contact initiated by the offensive player. The foul where a secondary defender (Craft) sees a player start to drive so he runs across the floor to get in his path and prepare to flop backwards would be eliminated. It's a great idea. The offensive fouls where the defender is moving his feet, sliding along with the ball handler could still be called. Those are called about twice a year and the commentators always tell you that the defender doesn't have to be set. Since the offensive guy initiated contact, dipped his shoulder, etc its still a foul. Just the concept of setting up to take a charge would be eliminated.

yes, this.  You said it better than I did.

[a0t0w0]

For once I like  a player that people hate.  Happy Craft got the call. 

[Dean Smith]

 

 

 

Nah, they just need to change the rule.  Get rid of the restricted area all together, make it a foul on the defense.  Right now, the defense doesn't need to defend, they just have to beat the ball handler to the spot and stand there.  Make it a defensive foul, tighten up a couple of other areas (like jump ball scrums, traveling and hand checking on the perimeter) and you've got a lot of your issues taken care of.

You can't completely get rid of charges or you would have guys plowing over people to get to the basket. What needs to be changed is when someone takes a charge while the offensive guy is the in the air. You can't just slip in front of a guy a split second before he is about to go up for a layup. It is impossible for the offensive guy to avoid contact when he is in the air.

I don't think so.  Defenders would adjust.  There wouldn't be be anyone standing under the rim or sliding under the ball handler from the under side of the lane.  Defenders would actually have to defend.  There could be an adjustment to compensate if necessary, but the Craft play or even the one on Zeller today, neither actually played defense, they stood there and collapsed when contact came.  Play defense, contest the ball, don't play tackling dummy.

The line was designed to keep people from standing under the basket and getting rewarded. Forcing people to play defense as you say. Imo if you get rid of the charge rule the defense couldn't adjust. When you needed freethrows your point could just come down and ram into his defender and you're on your way to the foul line. Working hard and beating an offensive player to a spot IS playing defense. And the idea of someone coming from the under side of the lane, they have a name for that - help defense.

Then create a rule that doesn't allow you to lower the shoulder.  They're making rules like that all the time.  They could do it here, too.  Make that the offensive foul, dropping the shoulder and ramming the defender.  But to slide over stiff as a board and not make a "basketball play" isn't how the game is supposed to be played.

 

Semantically, you're right, it's within the rules, but it's not basketball, or at least it shouldn't be.  It's devolved to the point where a guy who comes over to "defend" so late that offensive player has no chance to react isn't what the game is supposed to be.  It's a game of action and reaction.  It's a rigid play, basketball isn't supposed to be rigid, it's supposed to be a fluid sport.

 

What Craft did was not work hard to beat him to the spot.  What Zeller did after his turnover was not beat his guy to the spot.  Both plays manifestation of a bad rule and the devolution of the sport, IMO.

Craft was in the restricted area and if you can go to the moniter to check the line on three point shots, they ought to be able to do the same to check the restriction line.

 

I actually remember there being a lot more charges called back in the day myself then there are today. And we are just going to have to disagree, I think beating a player to the spot and sacrificing your body IS a basketball player. Sliding under the already airbourne offensive player means you did not beat him to the spot and it should be called a blocking foul. If you want to talk flopping, that's another topic. I don't know if it still is, but simulation used to be a technical foul. Call that once and awhile and you could clean up the flopping pretty quickly. My teams practiced how to take a charge without hurting yourself. Personally I see the problem the other way.  I see a lot of fouls called on the defense that I think are bailing out an out of conrol driver.  I would prefer those to be no calls. If you are in control and have body control, you can avoid the charge. If you are out of control the defense should be able to take advantage of your mistake.

 

I do have a problem with officials being influenced by who instead of what. Craft gets ridiculous calls that he doesn't deserve because he is Craft. Micheal Jordan's last shot in his last championship game against Utah - HE FOULED BYRON RUSSELL. That was a push off that would have been called in a heartbeat if it was the other way around.

 

I don't think we want to get into "how the game was meant to be played." Have you read Naismith's original 13 rules? None of this is how the game was originally meant to be played. And I know its not what you meant at all and you've clearified you position in later posts, but technically your first post would have made a moving screen legal as well.

[uneblinstu]

I'm not even arguing whether or not the call on Craft was right or not.  But these situations happen 6-8 times a game and the way it's being handled is taking away from the game.  At the very least, it needs to be redefined.  What they're doing now isn't consistent and is impossible to legislate.  

[colhusker]

Didn't see the Craft call but did see Illinois get hosed on a call late in the game when the ball clearly went off the Miami kids hand.  I agree with the announcer who said the rules committee needs to look into going to monitor when the game is under 2 minutes and a blown call like that can have an affect.  Give the coaches one challenge and like in football, if they get it wrong it costs them a timeout.

[Daledangdarn]

Didn't see the Craft call but did see Illinois get hosed on a call late in the game when the ball clearly went off the Miami kids hand.  I agree with the announcer who said the rules committee needs to look into going to monitor when the game is under 2 minutes and a blown call like that can have an affect.  Give the coaches one challenge and like in football, if they get it wrong it costs them a timeout.

 

The thing that HAS to change is the flagrant one calls.  There has been more horrible calls with this rule than anything else.