NBA Playoffs

[Blindcheck]

I like the NBA and college basketball...but I do believe the officiating affects the outcome of games in both.  

 

I assume in both cases that the officiating isn't intentionally bad, but I think we have all seen games where the officiating influenced who won the game.

 

Officiating, IMO, of basketball has allowed players to take advantage of calls that aren't made, so when a travelling, palming the ball, a lane violation,  or a techical on a dunk is called....it seems that it is random rather than enforcing the rules.

 

 

[bleujay]

On 6/2/2018 at 12:17 PM, Handy Johnson said:

Im a member of an online Laker group & the endless hand wringing over Lebron makes me ill. He's a fantastic talent, no two ways about it. I just don't want to see him in the home Golds. And can we please stop with the GOAT "debate" between him & Jordan, ho hum. It's always puzzled me why Jabaar is never even included in this conversation. Six rings, the last at age 40, and scored more points than anybody, ever...

 

Kareem is perhaps a victim of his era. His best years were the 70's when a lot of talent was in the ABA.He actually missed the playoffs more than once with the Bucks. He also never won a championship without Oscar Robertson or Magic, but then again most championship teams have two or more great players. Who is better in your mind, Kareem or Bill Russell?

 

[Blindcheck]

When looking at Jordan, Lebron, Kareem or Wilt....I look at things like what did the league do to help or hurt their dominance.

 

For Wilt, they widened the lane to try to slow him down, they actually changed the rules and court dimensions to slow him down.  (compare this to Golf, where courses tried to Tiger proof their course, so Tiger wouldn't run away with every tournament)

 

For Jordan, travelling rules were largely ignored...his first step could have been called a travel, and that first step was what often made him unguardable...so the league bent the rules in his case to help him dominate. (I think the same could be said about the players today, Lebron, Curry, harden, Durant....all have moves that are very tough to guard, but when you break them down could often be called as violations.

 

so in my opinion, calling a player the GOAT, I would go with the players that had to adjust to a league that was trying to slow down their dominance like Wilt rather than players that the league allowed to bend the rules to dominate.

 

[Chuck Taylor]

1 hour ago, Blindcheck said:

When looking at Jordan, Lebron, Kareem or Wilt....I look at things like what did the league do to help or hurt their dominance.

 

For Wilt, they widened the lane to try to slow him down, they actually changed the rules and court dimensions to slow him down.  (compare this to Golf, where courses tried to Tiger proof their course, so Tiger wouldn't run away with every tournament)

 

For Jordan, travelling rules were largely ignored...his first step could have been called a travel, and that first step was what often made him unguardable...so the league bent the rules in his case to help him dominate. (I think the same could be said about the players today, Lebron, Curry, harden, Durant....all have moves that are very tough to guard, but when you break them down could often be called as violations.

 

so in my opinion, calling a player the GOAT, I would go with the players that had to adjust to a league that was trying to slow down their dominance like Wilt rather than players that the league allowed to bend the rules to dominate.

 

I agree. Wilt and Kareem both have at least an equal claim to GOAT. 

[bleujay]

1 hour ago, Blindcheck said:

 

For Jordan, travelling rules were largely ignored...his first step could have been called a travel, and that first step was what often made him unguardable...so the league bent the rules in his case to help him dominate. (I think the same could be said about the players today, Lebron, Curry, harden, Durant....all have moves that are very tough to guard, but when you break them down could often be called as violations.

 

 

what? jordan is not alone in this treatment. they only call the most obvious violations

[colhusker]

1 hour ago, Blindcheck said:

When looking at Jordan, Lebron, Kareem or Wilt....I look at things like what did the league do to help or hurt their dominance.

 

For Wilt, they widened the lane to try to slow him down, they actually changed the rules and court dimensions to slow him down.  (compare this to Golf, where courses tried to Tiger proof their course, so Tiger wouldn't run away with every tournament)

 

For Jordan, travelling rules were largely ignored...his first step could have been called a travel, and that first step was what often made him unguardable...so the league bent the rules in his case to help him dominate. (I think the same could be said about the players today, Lebron, Curry, harden, Durant....all have moves that are very tough to guard, but when you break them down could often be called as violations.

 

so in my opinion, calling a player the GOAT, I would go with the players that had to adjust to a league that was trying to slow down their dominance like Wilt rather than players that the league allowed to bend the rules to dominate.

 

Lane was widen because of Bill Russell who was a damn fine player too.

[colhusker]

5 minutes ago, bleujay said:

 

what? jordan is not alone in this treatment. they only call the most obvious violations

Think his point is players today get away with things that allow them to do things that players in the day of Wilt, Russell and others could not do because the rules were actually called as written.

[colhusker]

9 hours ago, bleujay said:

 

Who is better in your mind, Kareem or Bill Russell?

 

Russell  - but you could build a heck of a team with either.

Oscar Robertson needs to be in the conversation of GOAT.

[Huskerpapa]

I have been watching NBA basketball for a looong time; and although it is tougher to watch now, the skills of the players are unbelievable.   I get upset that athticism is often masked by the physical muggings and obvious rule violations.

 

That said, different era's bring the "new best players ever."  Here is my all-time starting five:

PG  Oscar Robertson - a triple double machine that could defend and lead (followed by Magic and Cousy)

SG  Michael Jordan - the ultimate difference maker both on offense and defense (followed by West and Marovich)

W   LaBron James - once he developed his outside game, wow (followed by Dr. J and Elgin Baylor)

PF  Larry Bird - highest basketball IQ witnessed - a wizard (followed by Tim Duncan and Elvin Hayes)

C    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (tough call, but I put Kareem in front of Wilt and Russell because of his consistency over time)

 

Best ever...hmmm.  Hard for me to judge because the game has changed so much over time, but I lean towards Jordan, with LaBron very close to passing him.  Kareem and Oscar should be in the discussion though.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Huskerpapa

[royalfan]

Teams were limited in how you could defend back when Jordan played.  Was much harder to double schematically.   Fairly easy bron call for me as goat.  

[Handy Johnson]

11 hours ago, bleujay said:

 

Kareem is perhaps a victim of his era. His best years were the 70's when a lot of talent was in the ABA.He actually missed the playoffs more than once with the Bucks. He also never won a championship without Oscar Robertson or Magic, but then again most championship teams have two or more great players. Who is better in your mind, Kareem or Bill Russell?

 

I'd say Kareem because he played in an era when there were alot of great big men. Russell was never really "pushed",same with Mikan.

[Handy Johnson]

1 hour ago, Huskerpapa said:

I have been watching NBA basketball for a looong time; and although it is tougher to watch now, the skills of the players are unbelievable.   I get upset that athticism is often masked by the physical muggings and obvious rule violations.

 

That said, different era's bring the "new best players ever."  Here is my all-time starting five:

PG  Oscar Robertson - a triple double machine that could defend and lead (followed by Magic and Cousy)

SG  Michael Jordan - the ultimate difference maker both on offense and defense (followed by West and Marovich)

W   LaBron James - once he developed his outside game, wow (followed by Dr. J and Elgin Baylor)

PF  Larry Bird - highest basketball IQ witnessed - a wizard (followed by Tim Duncan and Elvin Hayes)

C    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (tough call, but I put Kareem in front of Wilt and Russell because of his consistency over time)

 

Best ever...hmmm.  Hard for me to judge because the game has changed so much over time, but I lean towards Jordan, with LaBron very close to passing him.  Kareem and Oscar should be in the discussion though.

All-time 5, I'll go with 3 Lakers: Magic, Kobe, Jabaar then Jordan & James.

[Dean Smith]

It’s fun to discuss different players and different eras, but I don’t understand how some people get so worked up and offended when someone else disagrees. We are talking about opinions and there is no right answers. I would start any team with Magic and I think the late 80’s early 90’s teams would dominate today’s teams because of depth (especially in the post) and how expansion has watered the league down. Cleveland and Golden State are starting people that I don’t don’t think would be good enough to make the roster of the championship teams from that earlier era but that’s my opinion. 

 

I also don’t understand all the hate for Lebron. I know who is on his team affects the style of play but right now but I think his style is ugly. IMO I think he has too many careless turnovers, always seems to mishandle the ball when he is setting up a 1v1 move. Defensively he is a very good on ball defender but off ball he loses focus and loses his man for cuts and too many offensive rebounds. For these reason he wouldn’t be my goat but I can acknowledge he is a special, special player and off the court he has been a pillar of virtue and been admirably socially active. 

[trickey]

4 hours ago, Handy Johnson said:

I'd say Kareem because he played in an era when there were alot of great big men. Russell was never really "pushed",same with Mikan.

 

Bill Russell may not have been pushed much in a team point of view; but when he played Wilt it was sure fun to watch. Wilt was bigger and stronger. Russell had the better teams.

Both deserve to be in the conversations.

[Handy Johnson]

35 minutes ago, trickey said:

 

Bill Russell may not have been pushed much in a team point of view; but when he played Wilt it was sure fun to watch. Wilt was bigger and stronger. Russell had the better teams.

Both deserve to be in the conversations.

Agreed, as should Elgin Baylor and Jerry West. Here's some Finals trivia for you. West was the only player to win the the Finals MVP award playing for the LOSING team averaging  44 points a game in 1969. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Handy Johnson

[Fullbacksympathy]

I grew up watching Jordan and I'm Lebron's age, so I can't speak much on the greats of the past, but Lebron has another 5-7 years left to go down as the all-time assists and possibly scoring leader in addition to grabbing another 2-3 rings if he plays his cards right.  I'm not sure there will be much of a discussion left after that.  GOAT has to include longevity of dominance and I just can't give that to guys like MJ (gambling) and Magic (we all know what he did) who took years off their prime careers by not putting the game first off the court.  Lebron has been the model of success on and off the court, and it's extended his career.  That will count for a lot when it is all said and done.

 

Lebron at 33 is quite a bit more accomplished than MJ at 33.  He has time.

 

If we're talking peak dominance rather than longevity, I'm not sure how anyone could be better than 2000-2001 Shaq.  We'll never see a 330lb player move like that again.  

 

As far as style, two things about today's game to note:  more quickness/strength and better shooting.  Lebron is carrying freakshow weight (265lbs) in today's league at his position, just like Shaq did.  Additionally, today's perimeter shooting has forced every defender on the court to have way more lateral quickness in addition to being able to shoot the ball.  We already know that the 3pt shot is more effective statistically in today's game than the midrange shot, so it's only going to be more imperative moving forward that 1-5 can shoot a decent three point percentage.  Bigs will have taken over 7500 threes this season at a 35% clip.  They shot 95 threes in 1980 at 11%, 667 in 1990 at 29%, 382 in 2000 at 26% (Shaq years).  When I look at the skill and athleticism of positions 3-5 in earlier eras, I'm just not sure how some of those players' midrange and post games could outscore/out-value today's shooting bigs.  

 

Just the height of the giant guys in the playoffs who essentially play point guard/shooting guard on offense--Lebron (6'9" 265) Ben Simmons (6'11" 240), Giannis (6'11" 225), KD (6'10" 240)--is completely changing the future of the game.  The need to switch defenders on the perimeter is next (which is exactly why Roby will be drafted--he can guard 1-5).  Soon enough, positions won't be a thing anymore because everyone on the court is going to be 6'7"+, mobile, with range, and guard skills.  It may look like small ball, but players are slightly taller now than ever across the board.  It's going to look insane down the road.  

 

 

[bleujay]

for me, MJ still holds the GOAT because:

-team's best player, leading one franchise to an effective six consecutive championships in the modern nba

-commitment to defense (or just winning at all costs)

 

plus, I do not like how lebron has been pulling strings in the cavs franchise. you're a player, not a staff member or part of the front office. and yes, the cavs are awful, but lebron drove away his second best player and negotiated huge contracts for some of these dead-weight players.

 

37 minutes ago, LK1 said:

Just the height of the giant guys in the playoffs who essentially play point guard/shooting guard on offense--Lebron (6'9" 265) Ben Simmons (6'11" 240), Giannis (6'11" 225), KD (6'10" 240)--is completely changing the future of the game

 

 

those are basically the only guys in the league that size that can handle the ball well. every era has a seldom few. Hell, KD's handle kinda sucks. This type of player is still extremely valuable and rare - tall and has good court vision/ball handling, its the only reason Luka Doncic is a top 3 pick. Personally I think young players come into the league with less halfcourt skill than they did 10 years ago. Simmons is the perfect example. His mobility and size are lethal in transition, but his lack of a jump shot makes him horrible in a slower paced game. And the playoffs are always slower paced, much less transition game..he was a nonfactor much of the time against boston. IMO it will be a long time before the NBA plays positionless basketball. A player's skillset too often gravitates around their size - e.g. small guys are low to the ground and handle the ball well. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by bleujay

[Handy Johnson]

Well, I'll weigh in. There has  been only one 6'9"  Point Guard in the history of the League and his name is Earvin Johnson. He also led his team in rebounding twice from the guard position, when his center was, oh BTW Kareem Abduhl Jabaar. He was a better passer than either James or Jordan, and I wouldn't get too haughty about how many rings LeBron might get before he's done. He hasn't even caught Jamaal Wilkes yet...

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Handy Johnson

[trickey]

7 minutes ago, Handy Johnson said:

Well, I'll weigh in. There has only been only one 6'9"  Point Guard in the history of the League and his name is Earvin Johnson. He also led his team in rebounding twice from the guard position, when his center was, oh BTW Kareem Abduhl Jabaar. He was a better passer than either James or Jordan, and I wouldn't get too haughty about how many rings LeBron might get before he's done. He hasn't even caught Jamaal Wilkes yet...

 

 

Handy, I am beginning to believe you may be a Lakers fan.

[HuskerFever]

I don't know about anyone else, but this Stanley Cup Finals between a team who hasn't been there in 20 years and never had a Stanley Cup series win versus a team who just started this year has been far more entertaining than watching Cavs/Warriors IV (at least so far).

 

Then again, JR's mishap and LeBron's huge contribution in game 1 made for an interesting series start. Let's just hope the rest of the series isn't like game 2 where LeBron sits on the bench for the last few minutes.

[Blindcheck]

5 years from now, we might all be saying, Holy Crap, Giannis is still only 28.

[colhusker]

11 minutes ago, Blindcheck said:

5 years from now, we might all be saying, Holy Crap, Giannis is still only 28.

Is Giannis a Cav or a Warrior?

[Chuck Taylor]

22 hours ago, royalfan said:

Teams were limited in how you could defend back when Jordan played.  Was much harder to double schematically.   Fairly easy bron call for me as goat.  

I know comparing guys of different eras always involves a lot of "what ifs", but the defensive scheming is big for me as well. Zone was outlawed, so MJ was able to do a lot more damage one on one than LB. The counter-argument is that the 3 pt shooters are better now, so helping comes at a price. As for the best ever, I'm probably in the camp with the big guys: Russell (the biggest winner in the history of basketball) and the unstoppable Wilt and Kareem. The defensive domination of the bigs trumps the offense from the wings. LB over MJ and the Big O if we're talking about playmaking wings.

 

If we're talking greatest collegian ever, I'll take Lew Alcindor by a mile. Most dominant player ever, and I hated UCLA.

[Huskerpapa]

10 hours ago, HuskerFever said:

I don't know about anyone else, but this Stanley Cup Finals between a team who hasn't been there in 20 years and never had a Stanley Cup series win versus a team who just started this year has been far more entertaining than watching Cavs/Warriors IV (at least so far).

 

Then again, JR's mishap and LeBron's huge contribution in game 1 made for an interesting series start. Let's just hope the rest of the series isn't like game 2 where LeBron sits on the bench for the last few minutes.

I would agree, but the game last night was bad.  Not sure Vegas can come back from 3-1; but miracle's can happen, especially when the Caps are the other team.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Huskerpapa

[royalfan]

I am amazed that Vegas made it this far.