Manhattan (3-6) vs. Nebraska (9-1) Game Thread

[huskerchode]

Brown is a good rebounder, and that is something that is really nice to see.

 

i didn’t watch the game - only listened to the second half with Matt and Jeff.  Sounded like Brady was making an impact so that is exciting to hear.  Also sounded like Mitchell had some very positive minutes.

[longtimefan]

Last year Nebraska's bench was the highest scoring bench of all the teams (last I heard anyway).  This tells me that  some bench players probably could or should have been  starters.  

 

I'm not going to try and look this up (somebody smarter than me probably can look it up) but I would guess that Brown may be the only nonstarter of all the teams that leads their team in scoring.  That's got to be a rare thing. Heck, I can't remember any basketball team whether it be grade school level or all the way up to the NBA where the leading scorer (and by quite a bit) is a nonstarter.  It just doesn't seem fair to the kid.  I think she deserves to be a starter and playing a lot more minutes.  Take her out for a rest as needed but keep her on the floor as much as possible. I know the old saying that offense wins games and defense wins championships.  However, at where this program is at, I'm more interested in winning games and will take offense over defense right now.  You can more easily teach someone to play defense but it's a lot harder to teach someone to be a scorer.

 

One more thing.  Some of you seem to think Brown's defense is bad.  I agree that she needs to get better, along with everyone else, but Whitish's defense is no better than Brown's and I think worse.  Whitish is the slowest player on the team with the exception of Cain, which is understandable.

[huskerchode]

The thing is - we know Whitish can score.  It just seems that there hasn’t been much consistency since her sophomore year.  Maybe if Williams were to start Brown over Whitish for a game, it might light a fire under her and then we would have two solid scorers.  

[12dozen]

44 minutes ago, longtimefan said:

Last year Nebraska's bench was the highest scoring bench of all the teams (last I heard anyway).  This tells me that  some bench players probably could or should have been  starters.  

 

I'm not going to try and look this up (somebody smarter than me probably can look it up) but I would guess that Brown may be the only nonstarter of all the teams that leads their team in scoring.  That's got to be a rare thing. Heck, I can't remember any basketball team whether it be grade school level or all the way up to the NBA where the leading scorer (and by quite a bit) is a nonstarter.  It just doesn't seem fair to the kid.  I think she deserves to be a starter and playing a lot more minutes.  Take her out for a rest as needed but keep her on the floor as much as possible. I know the old saying that offense wins games and defense wins championships.  However, at where this program is at, I'm more interested in winning games and will take offense over defense right now.  You can more easily teach someone to play defense but it's a lot harder to teach someone to be a scorer.

 

One more thing.  Some of you seem to think Brown's defense is bad.  I agree that she needs to get better, along with everyone else, but Whitish's defense is no better than Brown's and I think worse.  Whitish is the slowest player on the team with the exception of Cain, which is understandable.

Basketball is a team sport.  It shouldn't matter, who gets the start.   Coach Williams does a good job of sharing minutes.  We currently have 6 players averaging over 21 minutes a game.  And, Kissinger was averaging 19 minutes in the games she played.  Those minutes will need to go somewhere.  Defense is an area of concern. Hannah, Leigha, and Sam all contribute to a weak perimeter "D".  I'd like to see Nicea get more minutes. She is our best on ball defender by far.  With Kissinger out, if Coach wants to give Brown more minutes, it will probably come at the "3" position.     

[Bugeaters1]

There was a better crowd at the game than what I thought would show up. 4025 that's a good showing on the Sunday before Christmas.

[Fastbreaker]

7 minutes ago, Bugeaters1 said:

There was a better crowd at the game than what I thought would show up. 4025 that's a good showing on the Sunday before Christmas.

Brown played the most minutes of anyone yesterday.  Starting is highly overrated.  Brown did not start and got 26 minutes.  Mershon started and got around 18.

[Merlin]

Brady might give us a defensive spark as she continues to get into better playing condition, etc. She appears to have a no fear attitude. 

[whoopdeedoo]

3 hours ago, Bugeaters1 said:

There was a better crowd at the game than what I thought would show up. 4025 that's a good showing on the Sunday before Christmas.

 

attendance: top 6 in BT (non-con home games) 

Purdue    5949

OSU         5458

Maryland 5410

Iowa        5406

MSU        4193

Neb          3935

Edited December 23, 2019 by whoopdeedoo

[HUD]

26 minutes ago, Merlin said:

Brady might give us a defensive spark as she continues to get into better playing condition, etc. She appears to have a no fear attitude. 

I was at the game and watched Brady closely.  For not playing since the exhibition game she looked very calm and collected and will give us a good, tough and physical guard which we haven't had the past couple of years.  Just so she stays healthy.  

 

As for 3 point shooting everybody needs to Improve as we are in last place in 3pt. % in the big ten statistics.  We have improved a lot in free throws and rebounding.  

 

I also agree that Hannah's inconsistency does hurt us.  Take a look at Doyles progress the last 3 years. She has elevated her game every year.  Even though they have different skills I was hoping for more improvement year to year from Hannah.

[longtimefan]

12dozen said it shouldn't matter who starts, because it's a team sport.  Fastbreaker said starting is overrated.  I respectfully disagree with both of these statements.  Any kid out for sports has a goal of being a starter.  Nobody says I'm happy with just coming off the bench.  You want to see proof that starting matters, just look at how recruiting goes. Recruits are looking at schools where they think they have a good chance of starting their freshman year.  And look at all the transferring being done these days when they are not happy about not starting.  

 

I guess I'm kind of looking at our recruiting picture.  If you're a top recruit are you going to go to  a school where you are the top scorer for the team but have to come off the bench?  The top recruits want to start and play a lot of minutes.  

[12dozen]

1 hour ago, longtimefan said:

12dozen said it shouldn't matter who starts, because it's a team sport.  Fastbreaker said starting is overrated.  I respectfully disagree with both of these statements.  Any kid out for sports has a goal of being a starter.  Nobody says I'm happy with just coming off the bench.  You want to see proof that starting matters, just look at how recruiting goes. Recruits are looking at schools where they think they have a good chance of starting their freshman year.  And look at all the transferring being done these days when they are not happy about not starting.  

 

I guess I'm kind of looking at our recruiting picture.  If you're a top recruit are you going to go to  a school where you are the top scorer for the team but have to come off the bench?  The top recruits want to start and play a lot of minutes.  

I'm sure, how the minutes are shared, is something discussed on visits.  Recruits have their expectations when choosing a college, and coaches have theirs, when making an offer. I doubt, points per game, while important, is the primary criteria with this staff.  Back to Leigha, she did start 6 games last year.  Do you know if she was as effective in those starts, as she was coming in from the bench?  We just finished a weak non-conference schedule.  Will she be our leading scorer in conference play?   Both Sam and Hannah had more points per game than Leigha last season.  Maybe, who starts, is based on practice performance?  Maybe, some players are more comfortable not starting?  There is a reason, the head coach makes the big bucks.     

[Bugeaters1]

1 hour ago, 12dozen said:

I'm sure, how the minutes are shared, is something discussed on visits.  Recruits have their expectations when choosing a college, and coaches have theirs, when making an offer. I doubt, points per game, while important, is the primary criteria with this staff.  Back to Leigha, she did start 6 games last year.  Do you know if she was as effective in those starts, as she was coming in from the bench?  We just finished a weak non-conference schedule.  Will she be our leading scorer in conference play?   Both Sam and Hannah had more points per game than Leigha last season.  Maybe, who starts, is based on practice performance?  Maybe, some players are more comfortable not starting?  There is a reason, the head coach makes the big bucks.     

Some kids just have to watch the game for a bit before they are ready to get in a game. and see how the flow is going.

[longtimefan]

4 hours ago, 12dozen said:

I'm sure, how the minutes are shared, is something discussed on visits.  Recruits have their expectations when choosing a college, and coaches have theirs, when making an offer. I doubt, points per game, while important, is the primary criteria with this staff.  Back to Leigha, she did start 6 games last year.  Do you know if she was as effective in those starts, as she was coming in from the bench?  We just finished a weak non-conference schedule.  Will she be our leading scorer in conference play?   Both Sam and Hannah had more points per game than Leigha last season.  Maybe, who starts, is based on practice performance?  Maybe, some players are more comfortable not starting?  There is a reason, the head coach makes the big bucks.     

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in saying that Sam and Hannah had more points per game than Leigha last year.  Whitish averaged 10.1 points, Sam averaged 10.0 and Leigha averaged 9.6.  However, Whitish averaged 29.5 minutes/game, Sam 21.0 min./game to Leigha's 18.9 min/game.  So Whitish played 10 minutes ( a whole quarter) more and only scored  half a point more than Leigha.  

 

You state that maybe some players are more comfortable not starting?  I've never heard that one before.  If you're not comfortable in starting at this level, then maybe you should quit playing sports. 

[rand909]

14 hours ago, longtimefan said:

Last year Nebraska's bench was the highest scoring bench of all the teams (last I heard anyway).  This tells me that  some bench players probably could or should have been  starters.  

 

I'm not going to try and look this up (somebody smarter than me probably can look it up) but I would guess that Brown may be the only nonstarter of all the teams that leads their team in scoring.  That's got to be a rare thing. Heck, I can't remember any basketball team whether it be grade school level or all the way up to the NBA where the leading scorer (and by quite a bit) is a nonstarter.  It just doesn't seem fair to the kid.  I think she deserves to be a starter and playing a lot more minutes.  Take her out for a rest as needed but keep her on the floor as much as possible. I know the old saying that offense wins games and defense wins championships.  However, at where this program is at, I'm more interested in winning games and will take offense over defense right now.  You can more easily teach someone to play defense but it's a lot harder to teach someone to be a scorer.

 

One more thing.  Some of you seem to think Brown's defense is bad.  I agree that she needs to get better, along with everyone else, but Whitish's defense is no better than Brown's and I think worse.  Whitish is the slowest player on the team with the exception of Cain, which is understandable.

John Havlicek - Boston Celtics  "The best 6th man in the league."

 

Nicknamed "Hondo" (inspired by the 1953 movie of the same name starring John Wayne),^[8] Havlicek revolutionized the "sixth man" role, and has been immortalized for his clutch steal in the closing seconds of the 1965 Eastern Conference championship. In the seventh and final game, played at Boston Garden on April 15, the Celtics led the Philadelphia 76ers 110–109 with five seconds left, and only needed to inbound the ball underneath their basket to secure the victory and advance to the 1965 NBA Finals; however, Bill Russell's pass struck a wire which was hanging down from the ceiling and helping to support the baskets, the turnover then giving the 76ers and Wilt Chamberlain the ball and a chance to win the game and the series.^[8] Hal Greer was set to throw the inbounds pass for the 76ers. Havlicek stood with his back to Greer, guarding Chet Walker. But as Greer's pass came inbounds, Havlicek spun, leaped, and tipped the pass to Sam Jones.^[8] Veteran referee Earl Strom, who wrote this game action in his memoir Calling the Shots, called Havlicek's reaction one of the greatest plays he ever saw in his 32 years as a professional official.^[9] Announcer Johnny Most's call of "Havlicek stole the ball!" was dubbed by the NBA as "the most famous radio call in basketball history."^[10]

Havlicek is the Celtics' all-time leader in points, scoring 26,395 points (20.8 points per game, 16th all-time in points scored in the NBA), and playing in 1,270 games (30th all-time).^[11] He became the first player to score 1,000 points in 16 consecutive seasons, with his best season coming during the 1970–71 season when he averaged 28.9 points per game.^[12]

[12dozen]

12 hours ago, longtimefan said:

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in saying that Sam and Hannah had more points per game than Leigha last year.  Whitish averaged 10.1 points, Sam averaged 10.0 and Leigha averaged 9.6.  However, Whitish averaged 29.5 minutes/game, Sam 21.0 min./game to Leigha's 18.9 min/game.  So Whitish played 10 minutes ( a whole quarter) more and only scored  half a point more than Leigha.  

 

You state that maybe some players are more comfortable not starting?  I've never heard that one before.  If you're not comfortable in starting at this level, then maybe you should quit playing sports. 

Not sure anyone mentioned "being more comfortable" not starting.  It was suggested, some players could be more effective subbing in.

 

My point was, we have a head coach with a history of sharing minutes. I'm sure her philosophy on naming a starting lineup is known and accepted by the players. I suggested, this is probably discussed before a player accepts the scholarship offer.  At a risk of aging myself, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.  With regards to players coming in from the bench rather than starting, some are so effective, the NBA has an award for them (NBA 6th Man Award).  Check out some of the names of past winners.  Too bad they didn't have it in the 60's, Havlicek would have won it several times over.  The current winner is averaging over 20 points a game for the Clippers. According to you, since he's OK with not starting, maybe he should quit playing sports.   

 

If you have been following our team since Coach Williams arrived, you should have picked up on how strong our team has played in 4th quarters.  Spreading out the minutes contributes to this.  We are playing with fresh legs.  All your arguments, are the result of our substitution pattern.  Bench scoring highest, why?  They get the minutes.  Leigha's average, why? She gets the minutes. And, at times, she does start.  All you go by, is some very selective stats. Do you attend practice? Do you know what type effort the players give, on and off the court? Do you know which players are excelling in the class room? Do you know who spends most of the time in the gym? Who other players lean on (on and off the court)? More goes into creating a lineup than, who scored the most points.

 

As mentioned, we have a head coach, who's job is to make the decisions.  If she doesn't do it well, she won't be around long.  And the players, if they aren't OK with their treatment, the NCAA has made it easier than ever, to move on.  

[Bugeaters1]

8 minutes ago, 12dozen said:

Not sure anyone mentioned "being more comfortable" not starting.  It was suggested, some players could be more effective subbing in.

 

My point was, we have a head coach with a history of sharing minutes. I'm sure her philosophy on naming a starting lineup is known and accepted by the players. I suggested, this is probably discussed before a player accepts the scholarship offer.  At a risk of aging myself, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.  With regards to players coming in from the bench rather than starting, some are so effective, the NBA has an award for them (NBA 6th Man Award).  Check out some of the names of past winners.  Too bad they didn't have it in the 60's, Havlicek would have won it several times over.  The current winner is averaging over 20 points a game for the Clippers. According to you, since he's OK with not starting, maybe he should quit playing sports.   

 

If you have been following our team since Coach Williams arrived, you should have picked up on how strong our team has played in 4th quarters.  Spreading out the minutes contributes to this.  We are playing with fresh legs.  All your arguments, are the result of our substitution pattern.  Bench scoring highest, why?  They get the minutes.  Leigha's average, why? She gets the minutes. And, at times, she does start.  All you go by, is some very selective stats. Do you attend practice? Do you know what type effort the players give, on and off the court? Do you know which players are excelling in the class room? Do you know who spends most of the time in the gym? Who other players lean on (on and off the court)? More goes into creating a lineup than, who scored the most points.

 

As mentioned, we have a head coach, who's job is to make the decisions.  If she doesn't do it well, she won't be around long.  And the players, if they aren't OK with their treatment, the NCAA has made it easier than ever, to move on.  

Man the 60's and Havlicek. I remember watching him and Bill Russell & Celtics on the tv on Sundays with my dad. Great post by the way.

[12dozen]

14 minutes ago, Bugeaters1 said:

Man the 60's and Havlicek. I remember watching him and Bill Russell & Celtics on the tv on Sundays with my dad. Great post by the way.

I too grew up watching the Celtics.  I think Hondo and Bill Russell were my favorite players.  

 

When looking at the history of the 6th man award, I noticed Kevin McHale won it a couple of times, and Bill Walton won it as a Celtic.  

[mwm89]

8 hours ago, rand909 said:

John Havlicek - Boston Celtics  "The best 6th man in the league."

 

Nicknamed "Hondo" (inspired by the 1953 movie of the same name starring John Wayne),^[8] Havlicek revolutionized the "sixth man" role, and has been immortalized for his clutch steal in the closing seconds of the 1965 Eastern Conference championship. In the seventh and final game, played at Boston Garden on April 15, the Celtics led the Philadelphia 76ers 110–109 with five seconds left, and only needed to inbound the ball underneath their basket to secure the victory and advance to the 1965 NBA Finals; however, Bill Russell's pass struck a wire which was hanging down from the ceiling and helping to support the baskets, the turnover then giving the 76ers and Wilt Chamberlain the ball and a chance to win the game and the series.^[8] Hal Greer was set to throw the inbounds pass for the 76ers. Havlicek stood with his back to Greer, guarding Chet Walker. But as Greer's pass came inbounds, Havlicek spun, leaped, and tipped the pass to Sam Jones.^[8] Veteran referee Earl Strom, who wrote this game action in his memoir Calling the Shots, called Havlicek's reaction one of the greatest plays he ever saw in his 32 years as a professional official.^[9] Announcer Johnny Most's call of "Havlicek stole the ball!" was dubbed by the NBA as "the most famous radio call in basketball history."^[10]

Havlicek is the Celtics' all-time leader in points, scoring 26,395 points (20.8 points per game, 16th all-time in points scored in the NBA), and playing in 1,270 games (30th all-time).^[11] He became the first player to score 1,000 points in 16 consecutive seasons, with his best season coming during the 1970–71 season when he averaged 28.9 points per game.^[12]

Rand, you had me at "Havlicek".  A childhood idol of mine.  Thanks for posting!   

[All About the Corn]

While I would like to see Leigha move into the starting lineup it has more to do with the quality of play from Sam or Hannah. Leigha normally comes in for Sam. While Sam had 10 points, and 6 assists, she also had 5 turnovers.  Sometimes that is Hannah's assist/turnover numbers. I guess I would like to see Hannah come off the bench. 

[longtimefan]

I very seldom comment on this board. I just like to read it to see if there is anything new in recruiting or whatever. The only reason I commented was that whoopdeedo said Brown needs to become a more consistent scorer.  I felt that was a silly or unfair statement  I felt if anyone was inconsistent it was Whitish.  And that led me to commenting that I thought Brown needed to play more or be a starter.  That's all I wanted to say.

 

Next huskerchode starts on Brown's defense as to why she doesn't start.  Again I felt I had to defend Brown's defensive skills versus the rest of the team.  I felt Whitish's defensive skills are no better than Brown's, probably worse in my opinion.

 

Then Red Don put up the Whitish 3+ years of accomplishments.  I applaud her past accomplishments but she is regressing as statistics show it.

 

I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill as 12dozen states. I'm just defending my comments because some rebuttals I feel are totally wrong.

 

I liked the Havlicek info..  It brought  back lots of memories of watching him.  I'm curious though.  I know he was the 6th man, but did he lead the team in scoring when he was the 6th man, a nonstarter?  If yes, how many years? Also how many years was he a starter and not the 6th man?

 

Lastly I'm done commenting on why I think Brown should be starting. I'm not the coach and have no say.  This is just an opinion board and that's all I was doing.  Like I said in the beginning, whoopdeedoo got me started with his comment on Brown needing to be a more consistent scorer. I hope the people that disagree with anything I said can just agree that we disagree and let it go at that.

[12dozen]

21 minutes ago, longtimefan said:

I very seldom comment on this board. I just like to read it to see if there is anything new in recruiting or whatever. The only reason I commented was that whoopdeedo said Brown needs to become a more consistent scorer.  I felt that was a silly or unfair statement  I felt if anyone was inconsistent it was Whitish.  And that led me to commenting that I thought Brown needed to play more or be a starter.  That's all I wanted to say.

 

Next huskerchode starts on Brown's defense as to why she doesn't start.  Again I felt I had to defend Brown's defensive skills versus the rest of the team.  I felt Whitish's defensive skills are no better than Brown's, probably worse in my opinion.

 

Then Red Don put up the Whitish 3+ years of accomplishments.  I applaud her past accomplishments but she is regressing as statistics show it.

 

I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill as 12dozen states. I'm just defending my comments because some rebuttals I feel are totally wrong.

 

I liked the Havlicek info..  It brought  back lots of memories of watching him.  I'm curious though.  I know he was the 6th man, but did he lead the team in scoring when he was the 6th man, a nonstarter?  If yes, how many years? Also how many years was he a starter and not the 6th man?

 

Lastly I'm done commenting on why I think Brown should be starting. I'm not the coach and have no say.  This is just an opinion board and that's all I was doing.  Like I said in the beginning, whoopdeedoo got me started with his comment on Brown needing to be a more consistent scorer. I hope the people that disagree with anything I said can just agree that we disagree and let it go at that.

I did a little 'Googling' with regards to "Hondo"......

 

It looks like Havlicek joined the Celtics in 1962. He averaged 14+ points as a rookie.  In year 2, he averaged 19+ points a game and led the team in scoring. He retired as the leading scorer in Celtic history (record still).   He lead the team in scoring 4 times, in the 60's as a sixth man.  At the end of the 1969 season, Bill Russell retired as player/coach.  Havlicek moved to the starting lineup the following year. Ironically, 1970 was the first losing season in 20 years.  Red Auerbach had a 6th man philosophy.  He liked the idea of bringing in a scorer, with high energy, with the first sub.  He did not like the idea of a noticeable falloff, with regard to scoring, when making initial substitutions.