Will Hawkins Redshirt?

[hhcmatt]

 

It is also important to realize and understand...this is not college basketball of ten years ago.  There was a time where a coach would go to a player and simply say, you are redshirting and it was a done deal.  Today, more often than not, a player will not redshirt unless HE wants to redshirt. 

 

The players are keeping the redshirt in their pocket in case they wish to transfer.  By doing so, they save a year of eligibility.  I am not saying any of our kids want to transfer, but one has to wonder why someone like Vooch, did not redshirt last year.  Yes there are explanations, all of which seem a bit lame, but what the heck.

I fail to see how they are "saving" a year even if they transfer.  If the player RS his freshman year, and then transfers later, he will have exactly the same amount of eligibility with his "new" team as he would have had if he had played his freshman year and then used his RS for this transfer year.  For instance, if Vooch had RS last year, he would be a RS freshman this year rather than a sophmore.  Thus, if he were to transfer after this year, he would have 2 years of eligibility with his new team no matter whether he RS his freshman year or whether he "saved" his RS for the transfer year.  The net result is exactly the same.

 

The difference for the original team he signs for (in this case Nebraska) however, can be significant.  Because, if Vooch were to develop strength after this year and develop into a good player who can be a contributor next year and thereafter, he has essentially wasted a full year that he could have "saved" until his "5th" year when he would have been at his peak productivity.  There is no rationale whatsoever IMO to burn a players eligility for a few garbage minutes his freshman year.

 

 

The flaw in your statement/logic is that Surge or any other player who chooses not to redshirt will be relegated to garbage minutes.

 

Assume that Surge does transfer after this year.  Here are the two ways that could have played out

 

Year 1 - Redshirt

Year 2 - Freshman

Year 3 Transfer- Can't play

Year 4 - Junior

Year 5 - Senior

 

Year 1 - Freshman (garbage minutes)

Year 2 - Sophomore

Year 3 Transfer - Can't play

Year 4 Junior

Year 5 Senior

 

Surge and us will only regret him not redshirting if he doesn't transfer.

[Cookie Belcher]

His point was that "saving" your redshirt for the transfer year doesn't give you an additional year of eligibility at the new school like some are implying.

[Cookie Belcher]

What it does let you do is play an extra season at your first school compared to if you use a redshirt season at your original school. If you transfer with an unused redshirt, you will actually play in 4 seasons compared to 3. But the extra season is at the first school, not the second.

[NUdiehard]

 

 

Surge and us will only regret him not redshirting if he doesn't transfer.

 

And your point is?

 

You are simply restating my entire point.  If there is even a small chance that Vooch could develop into a productive player for us, why would you simply throw away that chance?  Why not preserve it, even if remote?

 

And why wouldn't Vooch also want to preserve that chance to develop and contribute for a BCS program in the B1G? 

 

Even if Vooch decides to transfer, he gained ABSOLUTEY NOTHING by burning his RS his freshman year.  NOTHING.

 

So, the math is as follows:

 

1.  Vooch could RS and preserve the possibility of developing and being a contributor his senior year while losing NOTHING as far as playing time his freshman year; or

 

2.  Burn his RS freshman year while gaining NO meaningful playing time and lose the potential extra year at NU as a contributor, and, even if he transfers, he is no better off than he would have been under scenerio #1. 

 

Why would any coach or player choose option #2?  I don't get it and will never understand it.  It makes no sense. 

[NUdiehard]

What it does let you do is play an extra season at your first school compared to if you use a redshirt season at your original school. If you transfer with an unused redshirt, you will actually play in 4 seasons compared to 3. But the extra season is at the first school, not the second.

This is correct.  But if the player only plays a few meaningless minutes, he really has not gained anything by "playing" that extra season at the first school.  It would be more logical to preserve the opportunity to play significant meaningful minutes in a 5th year of eligibility at the first school.  Even if that does not happen and he transfers, he has not lost anything of significant value b/c his minutes were so few and were meaningless in garbage time. 

[HB]

 

It is also important to realize and understand...this is not college basketball of ten years ago.  There was a time where a coach would go to a player and simply say, you are redshirting and it was a done deal.  Today, more often than not, a player will not redshirt unless HE wants to redshirt. 

 

The players are keeping the redshirt in their pocket in case they wish to transfer.  By doing so, they save a year of eligibility.  I am not saying any of our kids want to transfer, but one has to wonder why someone like Vooch, did not redshirt last year.  Yes there are explanations, all of which seem a bit lame, but what the heck.

I fail to see how they are "saving" a year even if they transfer.  If the player RS his freshman year, and then transfers later, he will have exactly the same amount of eligibility with his "new" team as he would have had if he had played his freshman year and then used his RS for this transfer year.  For instance, if Vooch had RS last year, he would be a RS freshman this year rather than a sophmore.  Thus, if he were to transfer after this year, he would have 2 years of eligibility with his new team no matter whether he RS his freshman year or whether he "saved" his RS for the transfer year.  The net result is exactly the same.

 

The difference for the original team he signs for (in this case Nebraska) however, can be significant.  Because, if Vooch were to develop strength after this year and develop into a good player who can be a contributor next year and thereafter, he has essentially wasted a full year that he could have "saved" until his "5th" year when he would have been at his peak productivity.  There is no rationale whatsoever IMO to burn a players eligility for a few garbage minutes his freshman year.

 

 

Often the decision isn't made by "rationale".  Regardless of whether your arguments are sound (and I think they are), many (most?) kids are unwilling to redshirt these days.  And that discussion comes up during recruiting.  Word has it that Vooch made it clear before signing that he wouldn't redshirt.  Now, some guys and their support system are mature enough to switch gears if they show up and it turns out being told how wonderful they were every day by AAU coaches and recruiters wasn't quite an accurate description,  but that is probably the exception rather than the rule.  Redshirting would benefit a lot of players, but that doesn't mean they will do it. The concept of delayed gratification is becoming extinct. 

[Hooper]

 

 

 

Surge and us will only regret him not redshirting if he doesn't transfer.

 

And your point is?

 

You are simply restating my entire point.  If there is even a small chance that Vooch could develop into a productive player for us, why would you simply throw away that chance?  Why not preserve it, even if remote?

 

Do you play poker? Would you commit a substantial amount of money into a pot that had only "a small chance" or "a remote chance" of paying off? I sure hope not, or you won't be winning much at poker.

 

Sorry, but if Vooch only has a "small chance," or a "remote chance," to develop into a B1G player, as you said, then he shouldn't even be on scholarship in the first place. You don't put a winning basketball team on the court by having guys on your 13-man scholarship roster who have only a "remote" chance of developing into a productive player down the road. You encourage those players to move on.

 

IMO we need much, much better odds on a player's successful development than "remote." That's how coaches get fired.

[hhcmatt]

 

 

 

Surge and us will only regret him not redshirting if he doesn't transfer.

 

And your point is?

 

You are simply restating my entire point.  If there is even a small chance that Vooch could develop into a productive player for us, why would you simply throw away that chance?  Why not preserve it, even if remote?

 

And why wouldn't Vooch also want to preserve that chance to develop and contribute for a BCS program in the B1G? 

 

Even if Vooch decides to transfer, he gained ABSOLUTEY NOTHING by burning his RS his freshman year.  NOTHING.

 

So, the math is as follows:

 

1.  Vooch could RS and preserve the possibility of developing and being a contributor his senior year while losing NOTHING as far as playing time his freshman year; or

 

2.  Burn his RS freshman year while gaining NO meaningful playing time and lose the potential extra year at NU as a contributor, and, even if he transfers, he is no better off than he would have been under scenerio #1. 

 

Why would any coach or player choose option #2?  I don't get it and will never understand it.  It makes no sense. 

 

 

I get that.  So did Miles when he tried to get Vooch to redshirt.

The problem is that most 18 year olds don't.

[NUdiehard]

Okay.  I understand your point better now.   

 

I guess I was also responding to some people who seemed to indicate that almost never is a good idea to RS players in college basketball today. 

 

For just one last look at this.  Let's say that Hawkins could play "some" minutes this year.  Let's say he could play 7-9 minutes per game and average about 2.9pts and 1.2 assists per game.  Is that worth it? 

 

Let's also assume (based on what we have seen and heard) that he is a talented player that will continue to devlelop each year.  This would mean that he could potentially average something in the range of 13pts, 4.6RBs and 3.3 assists per game his 5th year.  That is some pretty significant production.  Is it worth trading that 5th year of significant production for a few "relief" minutes his freshman year?  I don't know.

 

I guess if you just "assume" that by then Miles will be bringing in 4 star and 5 star recruits who can immediately come in and play at that same level, then okay, play him now.  But is that really that realistic?  Miles may bring in 1 or 2 high profile recruits a year, but all of them?  And is a 4 star freshman really the same as a mature, experienced and developed player like a talented 5th year senior?  Talented freshman can do some amazing things, but they also can do some really stupid things.  Even the best tend to turn the ball over and make plenty of mistakes.  It takes freshman time to learn the system, etc.  Having mature and experienced leaders on the team and on the floor can make a big difference.  This is the balance the coach and player must weigh in making these decisions.  And for a coach like Miles, who is trying to build a program from the ashes, he may have to consider it much more strongly than a coach at a more established or esteeemed program. 

 

As for the player not wanting to RS.  Well, here is the way I see it.  If the coach comes to you and says you should RS, you should RS.  And if you refuse, then you are immature and ignorant and need an adult to step in and make the decision for you.  Basically, the coach is saying "I don't think you will play much this year, it is better for you and the team for you to RS, get stronger, and be a very productive memeber of this team in the following years."  In other words, the coach is telling you you won't be playing much.  If the coach thought you were going to be a starter or a major contributor, then he wouldn't be asking you to RS.  Duh!

 

As for the player still not wanting to RS.  If the player is  a major project like Vooch, then tough!  The coach can decide just to never insert him in the game.  What is Vooch going to do about it?  Quit?  So what.  If all he cares about is himself, then he isn't worth the trouble.  He is not good enough to be dictating those types of things.  Besides, does anyone really think that Vooch is so much more happy and content now that Miles inserted in for a total of 10 minutes of playing time last year?  Did this meaningless gesture pacify him?  If it did, then he is too stupid to care about whether he quits or not (and I am NOT implying this to Vooch, I am just using this as an illustration of the moranic basis for this type of position).  Players who are projects should not be dictating what a coach does.  If the only reason the coach has them on roster is in the hope that they can be productive in years 4 and 5, and the player refuses to play to year 5, then open the door for them.  If they want to leave, so be it. 

[craig102m]

Okay.  I understand your point better now.   

 

I guess I was also responding to some people who seemed to indicate that almost never is a good idea to RS players in college basketball today. 

 

For just one last look at this.  Let's say that Hawkins could play "some" minutes this year.  Let's say he could play 7-9 minutes per game and average about 2.9pts and 1.2 assists per game.  Is that worth it? 

 

Let's also assume (based on what we have seen and heard) that he is a talented player that will continue to devlelop each year.  This would mean that he could potentially average something in the range of 13pts, 4.6RBs and 3.3 assists per game his 5th year.  That is some pretty significant production.  Is it worth trading that 5th year of significant production for a few "relief" minutes his freshman year?  I don't know.

 

I guess if you just "assume" that by then Miles will be bringing in 4 star and 5 star recruits who can immediately come in and play at that same level, then okay, play him now.  But is that really that realistic?  Miles may bring in 1 or 2 high profile recruits a year, but all of them?  And is a 4 star freshman really the same as a mature, experienced and developed player like a talented 5th year senior?  Talented freshman can do some amazing things, but they also can do some really stupid things.  Even the best tend to turn the ball over and make plenty of mistakes.  It takes freshman time to learn the system, etc.  Having mature and experienced leaders on the team and on the floor can make a big difference.  This is the balance the coach and player must weigh in making these decisions.  And for a coach like Miles, who is trying to build a program from the ashes, he may have to consider it much more strongly than a coach at a more established or esteeemed program. 

 

As for the player not wanting to RS.  Well, here is the way I see it.  If the coach comes to you and says you should RS, you should RS.  And if you refuse, then you are immature and ignorant and need an adult to step in and make the decision for you.  Basically, the coach is saying "I don't think you will play much this year, it is better for you and the team for you to RS, get stronger, and be a very productive memeber of this team in the following years."  In other words, the coach is telling you you won't be playing much.  If the coach thought you were going to be a starter or a major contributor, then he wouldn't be asking you to RS.  Duh!

 

As for the player still not wanting to RS.  If the player is  a major project like Vooch, then tough!  The coach can decide just to never insert him in the game.  What is Vooch going to do about it?  Quit?  So what.  If all he cares about is himself, then he isn't worth the trouble.  He is not good enough to be dictating those types of things.  Besides, does anyone really think that Vooch is so much more happy and content now that Miles inserted in for a total of 10 minutes of playing time last year?  Did this meaningless gesture pacify him?  If it did, then he is too stupid to care about whether he quits or not (and I am NOT implying this to Vooch, I am just using this as an illustration of the moranic basis for this type of position).  Players who are projects should not be dictating what a coach does.  If the only reason the coach has them on roster is in the hope that they can be productive in years 4 and 5, and the player refuses to play to year 5, then open the door for them.  If they want to leave, so be it. 

 

Very well put

[hhcmatt]

I guess I was also responding to some people who seemed to indicate that almost never is a good idea to RS players in college basketball today.

Besides the "kids don't want to redshirt" factor listed earlier, there is also the issue where coaches tend to get fired if they don't produce which makes the short term gains outweigh the long term. Thus, you need to not only have the right one or two kids but also be in the right place as a program or otherwise someone else will be coaching your 5th year seniors.

As for the player still not wanting to RS. ... If they want to leave, so be it.

'My way or the highway' tends to work a lot better when you don't have a problem filling all of your scholarships. It works markedly better when you have more prospects than scholarships.

[FredsSlacks]

http://journalstar.com/sports/huskers/mens-basketball/nu-freshman-hawkins-doesn-t-plan-to-redshirt/article_990864d3-659c-5b58-9d18-075ba5ccc5df.html

[Swan88]

http://journalstar.com/sports/huskers/mens-basketball/nu-freshman-hawkins-doesn-t-plan-to-redshirt/article_990864d3-659c-5b58-9d18-075ba5ccc5df.html

Thanks, Tim, for the link.  Some good stuff in the article!  For example:

 

Self assessment from Hawkins:

“I can score, but I also see the floor really well,” Hawkins said. “I know the offenses really well. I can see things before they happen, so I know what’s going on.  Defensively, for someone my size, I’m a pretty good defender. I’m quick for my size but I’m also strong, so I can guard multiple positions and crash the boards. I do whatever coach tells me to.”

 

Assessment of Hawkins from Miles (gotta love high-basketball-IQ guys):

Hawkins "has a good mind for the game.  Nathan is a young guy who really has a high intelligence, and especially a high basketball IQ,” Miles said. “He just sees the game in a really good manner. He’s one of those guys, you classify him as a player. He reads screens, plays well without the ball."

 

A little levity from Coach Miles:

“When he’s not passing the ball behind his back, he’s a real good passer.”

[a0t0w0]

Hey, how did they know we were talking about this?

[jimmykc]

Could it be someone from the LJS occasionally drops by? Naaah!

[a0t0w0]

Could it be someone from the LJS occasionally drops by? Naaah!

 

Who needs to dig up leads when one can consult the message boards.

[FredsSlacks]

I think it was just obvious that Hawkins was a redshirt candidate simply because he is the only one who is a backup to a returning senior starter who was also our leading scorer.

[Huskerpapa]

Once again, I think all the freshman will all play important roles on this years team. 

[Dicemanhusker]

Once again, I think all the freshman will all play important roles on this years team.

Agreed

[throwback]

Once again, I think all the freshman will all play important roles on this years team. 

All of the newcomers certainly looked the part at the scrimmage and I'd say that they can develop into contributors sooner rather than later - I will be interested to see how the 3 freshmen & Smith look in a more controlled situation against UNK, not to mention now with a couple dozen practices under their belts, but there doesn't appear to be any "projects" or "reaches" in the class.

 

Splitting up the minutes will be a challenge - a good challenge - for the coaches.

[Huskerpapa]

The more depth, the faster the pace of play.  You can rotate players when there is no discernable drop in talent.  Plus, the competition in practice has to be wicked.

[Dicemanhusker]

The more depth, the faster the pace of play. You can rotate players when there is no discernable drop in talent. Plus, the competition in practice has to be wicked.

We are becoming deep in athletic length. That can be a very good thing with good coaches.