NUdiehard

Sai is listed at 6'6" on his juco roster as well: http://slccbruins.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=477 Not sure where the 6'7" comes from, but I doubt its very credible. Juco rosters always give the player the benefit of the doubt on their height. Doubt he is a legit 6'6" based on that alone. But it also says he lettered in volleyball at HS. He and Tai would make one heck of an rec team!

Well he is listed at 6'8", 220 lbs and Tummala is listed at 6'7", 215 lbs... Also, if McDermott is a "big pussy", then he is a "big pussy" that just has just become a repeat selection as an AP All-American. I would take a guy that you condider to be a "big pussy", if he can put up numbers for Nebraska that will lead to him to becoming a 2-time AP All-American selection. And yes McDermott had Echinique playing next to him which made "all the difference in the world". Echinique is listed at 6'9", 260 lbs as a senior. If Tummala has a guy like Smith (who is listed as 6'8", 250 lbs as a sophomore) playing next to him, then that should make "all the difference in the world". Especially because he has the ability to put on 10 lbs each season, which would have him playing at around 270 lbs his senior season. I'd take Dougie Buckets too, but that doesn't change my opinion that I consider him to be a bit of a pussy. Echenique is a very adept and aggressive rebounder -- much more so than Smith. The knock on Smith is that, despite having the body type to play the position, he's a bit soft and lacks an aggressive mindset. He'll need to turn up the intensity quite a bit to play for Tim Miles in my opinion. If not, he'll be sitting on the bench. I feel as though I'm having an extremely difficult time getting my point across in this thread. To summarize: 1) We need at least one true power player on the court most of the time who can defend the low post and aggressively battle for rebounds to the extent that Nebraska won't find itself at a rebounding deficit relative to opponents on a game by game basis. You've got to be able to rebound the basketball to win games, period. 2) Sai Tummala is more of a finesse player than a power player, and, while I like him a lot and want him on our roster very badly, I don't consider him to be a power player, but instead much more of a finesse player. We need talent and depth, period, so I'm fine with that, but my original post in this thread was in response to what I believe to be an opinion held by some here that Sai Tummala is a power player who helps solve our deficiency in that area, when I don't believe he does. Hoops, I'm with ya. Sai isn't total finesse but he's not going to bang like an Echinique does. At this stage of the game, late signing period and all, the pickins are slim. This happens to be what I think is a legit kid who could fit on our roster and do some things that current players don't do. As I go down the list of players, I just don't see a kid who has his shooting stroke except for maybe a couple of the freshmen coming in. Petteway? Not from what I'm hearing. Rivers? Nope. Shields? Nah. Pitchford? Apparently not. And judging by Sai's film and what folks are saying about Pitchford, it looks like Sai can post up better than Pitchford too. Biggs? No Parker? Are you kidding me? Gallegos? Uh, no. Competition level makes a difference, sure. But have you seen that guy's stroke? And the shots he's taken on the films I've seen have been contested shots. But, even if not, that's a pretty good % even unguarded. Shields shot 42% from 3 land (the highest 3-point percentage on the team) as a true freshman during conference play in the B1G, with a bad wing and large elbow pad to boot on his shooting arm. Yet, you have already declared Sai a much better shooter than Shields? I think I will wait and see aobut that. And, as I have said, I bet you doughnut to dollar that Shields is taller than Sai (or at least every bit as tall).

I haven't seen Tummala listed at 6'6" anywhere. Everywhere that I have seen has him listed at 6'7", 215 lbs. http://rivals.yahoo.com/nebraska/basketball/recruiting/player-Sai-Tummala-150220 He was listed as 6'6" on the Michigan roster last year: http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/tummala_sai00.html He may have grown an inch since then, but that is unlikely. Most likely his juco embellished his height as they often do. I agree 100% with Hooper on this one. I don't see him as a true PF at all. I would bet that Shields is taller than Sai. Not saying he wouildn't play some PF here at NU if he signs, but he is not a true PF. And yes, he may be able to create some mismatches when on the offensive end, but again, people seem to forget about the defensive end and rebounding, which is crucial.

Not necessarily. They are only must gets if they are actually good enough to play and elevate the team. Miles has already shown that he is going to play the 6 to 8 best players on the team, regardless of position. If either Sai or Leslee cannot crack the top 8 or 9, then not signing them means almost nothing. Even if Smith plays a position of need at center, I think Miles has shown that he would rather play a better player and go small than play a bigger player who lacks the skill or strength. Heck, Miles refused to play Andre almost all of conference play even though he is a relatively skilled big man. I seriously doubt that Smith is more skilled than Andre. He may be better athlete, but is that enough to crack the top 8, I don't know. There was an article about a month ago in which Miles was interviewed about recruiting. I tried to find it but I can't even remember what publication it was in. Anyway, in the article, he talked about his recruiting philosophy and how he did not want to "reach" on any recruits simply because the team may be in need of another player at a certain position. In fact, he specifically mentioned how many teams will recruit and sign big men late in the spring signing period who are not of the talent level they normally recruit. (That is why you might see an Oklahoma State offer a guy like Shang Ping in the spring, for example. My example, not Miles). Miles said he was determined not to fall into this trap. He said that in a rebuilding project like NU, you can't waste any scholarships. Even suggested it would be better to hold on to the scholarship for the next recruiting cycle if necessary. To be honest, after reading that article, I was surprised to see that he offered Smith, and maybe even Sai. I am still giving Miles the benefit of the doubt, so I am trusting they see something in these guys, but only time will tell.

If anyone has to go (errrr, chooses to leave), my money is on BP.

Sai Tummala is a prime example of a player who redshirted his freshman year and it was a significant benefit to him even though he elected to transfer from that school. Sai initially went to Michigan as a freshman. He did not play and therefore was a RS his freshman year. After his freshman RS season, he elected to transfer and he decided to transfer to a junior college. At the junior college, he was able to play an entire season and get exposure to Div. 1 programs and open up his recruitment. He lost a year of eligibility to play in juco, but since he RS his freshman year at Mich, he is still has THREE years of eligibility left to play at a major Div. 1 program. This is a HUGE benefit to Sai. Had his coach at Mich elected to play him for a few minutes at the end of games during his freshman year, whether to allegedly "evaluate" him or allegedly to "preserve his RS for a transfer", it would have been a significant detriment to Sai because Sai would have lost that year of eligibility, plus another year of eligibility at juco, and thus would only have 2 years of eligibility remaining. What if Vooch decides it is not working out at NU and that he wants to go to a junior college and play one season to try and get some playing time and exposure so that he can go to a different team. If he does that, he will lose another year of eligibility, and thus only have 2 years of eligiblity remaining. He will have 3 years to play those 2 years (a 3 for 2 guy), but it would be MUCH better for him to be a 3 for 3 guy coming out of juco than a 3 for 2 guy.

Kamdy, in general I would agree with you, but not in Vooch's case. Again, let's contrast Vooch with BP. Miles played BP in real legit minutes in real games that matterered. Thus, Miles was able to "evaluate" just how BP stands up against Div 1 and even B1G competition, thus using that as a basis to evaluate where BP might fit into future plans. Although it is still debatable whether it is worth buring a RS year for that, there certainly is an argument either way. In fact, I have absolutely no problem with Miles choice to not RS BP this year. However, this is in stark contrast to Vooch. Miles did not even play Vooch until something like the 4th or 5th game, and he did not put Vooch into the game until the last minute or 2. The game was not in question, and both teams were clearing their benches. Miles was not able to make any meaningful evaluation from that 1 minute of meaningless play that he couldn't make from practice time. Then, if my memory serves me correct, Vooch did not play at all for a number of games afte after that. And in the very few games that Vooch did play, they were all just 1 or 2 minutes at the end of the game when the game was no longer in question and the other team had cleared its bench. Vooch wasn't even playing against other legit Div. 1 or B1G players, he was playing against walk-ons for a couple minutes. There was nothing in those minutes that Miles could use to "evaluate" whether Vooch had potential to develop, etc. Again, that is my whole point. If Miles purpose was to play Vooch to "evaluate" him, then he should have played him at least a few minutes in the meat of the game against the othet teams starters, etc. We had a number of blow out games that Vooch could have come in much earlier, but Miles never put him in. He put in Tyrance, and even Menke, but not Vooch. Thus, there simply was nothing gained by inserting him for those 10 meaningless minutes at the end of games against the other team's walk-ons. I don't see how it can be argued that, under those circumstances, it would have been better to RS him. Nothing was gained by playing him, but an entire year of eligibility was lost by playing him.

Just to clarify, if he goes, then I agree there is no benefit to either Vooch or NU. But both Vooch and NU will be in the EXACT same position as they would have been had he RS his freshman year. So, since he has not yet transferred, and since there is still the prospect that he could become a valuable member of the team, it still would have been better to RS him b/c if he develops and becomes productive and valuable, then he has an extra year, while if he doesn't develop and transfers, he is in the exact same position. By not RS this year, he has already "burned" a year of eligibility that he didn't have to "burn". Thus, that year is already gone. If he transfers, he will not have to "burn" another year, but he has already "burned" his one year, so he is in the exact same position he would have been had he RS this year. I don't think that's true. Not entirely. Each succeeding year of playing eligibility has more value to the player. If he had redshirted his first season, there would be a disincentive to transferring, which I believe was Kamdy's point. It goes like this: Let's say that, particularly with a raw big man, he develops over time. And let's say that the total development he experiences during his college career is 100%. And let's further assume that the percentages of development for such a 5-year player go as follows: 1st year = 40%; 2nd year = 30%; 3rd year = 15%; 4th year = 10%; and 5th year = 5%, such that the last 5% of development occurs during the final season. It stands to reason, then, that during that 5-year career, he'll be able to contribute the most during his final season and successively less in each preceding season. This would suggest that his 5th season would have the most value to him and the first season would have the least value, per what he would be able to contribute as a player. NUdiehard is suggesting that, for a transfer, mathematically it makes no difference whether he redshirts in year 1 or year 4 because, either way, he still has 5 total years. And that's true. But that line of reasoning assumes that all years are equal and I don't think they are. If a player reshirts his first season and then sits out as a transfer, he has lost a productive year. And the longer he waits to transfer, the more of a productive season he will lose by transferring. Wait too long and you take the option of spending a year in juco off the table. Moreoever, if you save your redshirt for a possible transfer year, it allows you to get up-to-speed with your new coach's system while you're sitting out as a transfer. (Think Walter Pitchford or Terran Petteway.) I don't think there's any doubt that Sergej is better off saving his redshirt in the event a transfer becomes necessary. Holy cow! Do you really believe all that mumbo jumbo or are you just trying to make this a 35 page thread? First, let's just assume your initial premise is correct, that big men develop more in their first years and less in their later years. That is debatable, but I will assume it correct for purposes of my response. Second, let's also assume that big men have more value/production during their later years (ie, years 4 and 5 then 1 and 2), which I definitely think it true. Even if all of this is true, it doesn't change a blasted think in regards to Vooch if he had RS this year. Since you mentioned Pitchford, let's use him as a prime example. Last year, Pitchford played about 20 minutes total at Florida. He was essentially a non-factor there. If he had RS last year, he still would have "developed" just as much. He still would have been able to practice under Donovan and gain his 40% of development. And if he decided to transfer here, he still would be in the exact same position. He would sit out a year, continue to develop (another 30% under your equation), and next year he would be a sophmore in eligibility. In both scenerios, he would still have 3 years to play during his peak performance years and he would have 2 years that were completely unproductive. It is the same thing. Now, just to further lay this out, let's say Vooch stays one more year, plays 6 minutes a game and averages 1.5pts/game in the process, and then transfers after next season. He will go to a new team, sit out one year (his third year of "development") and have 2 more years of eligibility with his new team (his PEAK 2 years--years 4 and 5). Now let's change it to the hypothetical as if Vooch had RS this year. Under that scenerio, if Vooch stayed one more year, played 6 minutes/game and averaged 1.5pts/game in the process (exactly the same), and then decided to transfer, the process would be EXACTLY THE SAME. He will go to a new team, sit out one year (his third year of "development") and have 2 more years of eligibility with his new team (his PEAK 2 years--years 4 and 5). It is exactly the same. He will still play his 2 peak years, and he will still practice with his new team during his 3rd year of development, just the same. What you didn't calculate in your fancy little equation is the fact that this year, in his freshman year at NU, Vooch has a 0% production value for the season. That is my WHOLE point. He played a total of about 10 minutes, all of which were totally and completely meaningless. Yet, he "burned" an entire year of eligibility for those 10 meaninglyess minutes. There is no rational basis to suggest he is better off for doing that. Your little equation proves my entire point. If Vooch had RS this year, he would have RS during his LEAST productive year (which in this case was 0%). There is no way this can be a bad thing. If Vooch had played meaningful and productive minutes, then you would be correct in what you are saying. But that is my whole point. He didn't, so he got no "value" from this year even though he burned a RS to do it. For instance, in contrast, if BP should transfer, then I would agree that it was better for him to not RS this year. He was able to get some legit playing time, some meaningful minutes, and meaningful experience that he can learn from and use to continue to develop. But Vooch did not get that at all. The very few minutes he played were all at the end of games when the outcome was decided and usually against the other teams walk-ons. Nothing he couldn't get in practice. It did not provide him additional preparation for future development. What it did do, though, is burn a year of eligibility. If Vooch decides to stay (and if Miles wants him to stay), then Vooch unnecessarily burned a RS year for nothing. Again, in contrast, BP did not waste a RS year for nothing, he got something from it, so an argument can be made in BP's case. But not for Vooch. He lost a year of eligibility for nothing and if he stays, and if he develops into a productive and valuable big, then he will lose his MOST valuable year (his 5th year) because he burned that year for a nothing year.

Just to clarify, if he goes, then I agree there is no benefit to either Vooch or NU. But both Vooch and NU will be in the EXACT same position as they would have been had he RS his freshman year. So, since he has not yet transferred, and since there is still the prospect that he could become a valuable member of the team, it still would have been better to RS him b/c if he develops and becomes productive and valuable, then he has an extra year, while if he doesn't develop and transfers, he is in the exact same position. By not RS this year, he has already "burned" a year of eligibility that he didn't have to "burn". Thus, that year is already gone. If he transfers, he will not have to "burn" another year, but he has already "burned" his one year, so he is in the exact same position he would have been had he RS this year.

I suppose if you tell yourself something enough times you can convince yourself of it even if it logically doesn't make sense. If Vooch had RS this year, he would still have 4 years of eligibility left. Thus, even if he transferred after next year (or any other year) he would have EXACTLY the SAME amount of eligibility left as he does under the current arrangement where he preserved his RS. However, if Vooch stays, and if he improves, but not until his third year in the program, he will only have 2 years of productive service to this team, whereas if he had RS this year, he would have 3 years productive service to the team, including a 5th year RS Senior year which would be his BEST year of service, and better than any service he will be able to provide under the current arrangement (in which he will only be able to play through his 4th year b/c he will lose his eiligibiltiy after that 4th year). Withey is a prime example of a big man who was terrible his first 2 years, but then blossomed and is now a key cog in a NCAA #1 seed at KU. Let's just hypothetically say that Vooch turns out to be even a poor-man's Withey (which would be very, very good under NU standards) by his 4th year in the program. Do you really think that Miles can just go and land a freshman big man at that point who will come in AS A FRESHMAN and be as good or better than Vooch would be his 5th year as a RS Senior? I think that is being wildly optimistic beyond reason. The more rational approach would be to preserve the ability to retain Vooch for that 5th year of service when he will be at his PEAK strength and productiveness. That is exactly the approach that a program like NU should be taking that is trying to find diamonds in the rough and hidden gems and develop them into players that can compete at a high level by their 4th and 5th years in the program. Vooch gained absolutely nothing by playing 10 minutes this year that he couldn't have also gained by simply practicing with the team every day just as he did, whether he played those 10 minutes or not. And if Vooch turns out to be a bust and it becomes obvious he will never be able to play at this level, Miles could help him find a new lower-level school, and as I said above, he would still have EXACTLY the same amount of eligility remaining at that new school. There is no gain to him by saving the RS for the transfer process. So you want to compare one of the nation best centers coming out of high school and Vooch? He was the 36th best OVERALL player in the country. He was EXPECTED to be good. Come on now dont try and come with some ludicrous claims that Serge was ever expected to be that good. Next youre going to tell me we need to give Benny Parker a break because one of the nations best point guards struggled early in his career so it means he should be able to do the same. Ummmm, I didn't compare Vooch to anyone. I just made a hypothetical. And even in that hypothetical, I referred to the possibility that Vooch could become a hypothetical "poor-man's" Withey (which I still maintain would be very good for NU). And what "expectations" a player has when he is signed or arrives on campus is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what a player is and what he can become. Coaches bring in 5 stars who are busts all the time, and coaches bring in 2 stars who turn out to be All-conference players. I am not saying Vooch is either one, I am just saying that either way, the logical choice would have been to RS him. Whether Vooch turns out to be anywhere near as good as Withey is completely irrelevant to my point, which was that it doesn't matter whether Vooch is boom or bust, that it doesn't change the position that it would have been better to RS him this year. I notice that you didn't even bother to address that issue. I've already stated numerous times I was all for them to NOT redshirt him. Basketball unlike any other sport you can easily turn your program around in a few short years, if not even one year. With that being the case do you want to saddle yourself with someone who "might" pan out 4 years from now or have someone that can make an impact today that helps your recruiting tomorrow. Nebraska needs players that can contribute now more than anything and if a player cannot there isnt a need to keep them around if you dont feel they can help your team in the next year. Miles knows he needs to turn things much faster at a big time program than he did at any other school which is why you see him scouring every inch of the earth trying to find guys that can compete right now. Once you get to a level of Kansas, when you can stockpile talent, then you can consider letting a guy redshirt but when youre 10th in the B1G changes need to happen now. I give up. I don't understand what any of that has to do with the choice to not RS Vooch this year. As I have stated a hundred times, and as we all know, Miles can cut Vooch loose at any time whether he RS him or not this year if he doesn't want him "saddling" his program. Oh well. And just for the record, I anticipate everyone will jump on me and say I am trying to knock on Miles, etc. I am not doing that at all. I like Miles and think he is doing a very good job. I was very clear I thought Doc should go after year 5, let alone year 6, and I think Miles is a HUGE upgrade from Doc. If season one under Miles was a game of poker, I look at the Vooch situation as just being one hand that was poorly played in a long day of play. Everybody plays at least a few bad hands, but at the end of the day (or, in this case, the end of season 1), I think Miles is walking out of the room with a lot more chips than he came in with. The Vooch situation is not a huge deal to me and will not make or break Miles or this program in any way, shape or form. I am just calling it the way I see it. I would hope even Miles could admit (If not publicly, at least privately), that he did not do everything perfect his first year. That would be unreasonable, no one is perfect. I am just discussing one particular aspect and I wouldn't even discuss it at all except that so many people seem to think it was the wise decision to not RS him and, for the life of me, and can't think of any logical explanation why.

I suppose if you tell yourself something enough times you can convince yourself of it even if it logically doesn't make sense. If Vooch had RS this year, he would still have 4 years of eligibility left. Thus, even if he transferred after next year (or any other year) he would have EXACTLY the SAME amount of eligibility left as he does under the current arrangement where he preserved his RS. However, if Vooch stays, and if he improves, but not until his third year in the program, he will only have 2 years of productive service to this team, whereas if he had RS this year, he would have 3 years productive service to the team, including a 5th year RS Senior year which would be his BEST year of service, and better than any service he will be able to provide under the current arrangement (in which he will only be able to play through his 4th year b/c he will lose his eiligibiltiy after that 4th year). Withey is a prime example of a big man who was terrible his first 2 years, but then blossomed and is now a key cog in a NCAA #1 seed at KU. Let's just hypothetically say that Vooch turns out to be even a poor-man's Withey (which would be very, very good under NU standards) by his 4th year in the program. Do you really think that Miles can just go and land a freshman big man at that point who will come in AS A FRESHMAN and be as good or better than Vooch would be his 5th year as a RS Senior? I think that is being wildly optimistic beyond reason. The more rational approach would be to preserve the ability to retain Vooch for that 5th year of service when he will be at his PEAK strength and productiveness. That is exactly the approach that a program like NU should be taking that is trying to find diamonds in the rough and hidden gems and develop them into players that can compete at a high level by their 4th and 5th years in the program. Vooch gained absolutely nothing by playing 10 minutes this year that he couldn't have also gained by simply practicing with the team every day just as he did, whether he played those 10 minutes or not. And if Vooch turns out to be a bust and it becomes obvious he will never be able to play at this level, Miles could help him find a new lower-level school, and as I said above, he would still have EXACTLY the same amount of eligility remaining at that new school. There is no gain to him by saving the RS for the transfer process. So you want to compare one of the nation best centers coming out of high school and Vooch? He was the 36th best OVERALL player in the country. He was EXPECTED to be good. Come on now dont try and come with some ludicrous claims that Serge was ever expected to be that good. Next youre going to tell me we need to give Benny Parker a break because one of the nations best point guards struggled early in his career so it means he should be able to do the same. Ummmm, I didn't compare Vooch to anyone. I just made a hypothetical. And even in that hypothetical, I referred to the possibility that Vooch could become a hypothetical "poor-man's" Withey (which I still maintain would be very good for NU). I also gave a hypothetical that Vooch could turn out to be a complete bust. I did not give either one more credence that the other. My point as that either way, the logical choice would have been to RS Vooch this year. And what "expectations" a player has when he is signed or arrives on campus is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what a player is and what he can become. Coaches bring in 5 stars who are busts all the time, and coaches bring in 2 stars who turn out to be All-conference players. I am not saying Vooch is either one, I am just saying that either way, the logical choice would have been to RS him. Whether Vooch turns out to be anywhere near as good as Withey is completely irrelevant to my point, which was that it doesn't matter whether Vooch is boom or bust, that it doesn't change the position that it would have been better to RS him this year. I notice that you didn't even bother to address that issue.

I suppose if you tell yourself something enough times you can convince yourself of it even if it logically doesn't make sense.If Vooch had RS this year, he would still have 4 years of eligibility left. Thus, even if he transferred after next year (or any other year) he would have EXACTLY the SAME amount of eligibility left as he does under the current arrangement where he preserved his RS. However, if Vooch stays, and if he improves, but not until his third year in the program, he will only have 2 years of productive service to this team, whereas if he had RS this year, he would have 3 years productive service to the team, including a 5th year RS Senior year which would be his BEST year of service, and better than any service he will be able to provide under the current arrangement (in which he will only be able to play through his 4th year b/c he will lose his eiligibiltiy after that 4th year). Withey is a prime example of a big man who was terrible his first 2 years, but then blossomed and is now a key cog in a NCAA #1 seed at KU. Let's just hypothetically say that Vooch turns out to be even a poor-man's Withey (which would be very, very good under NU standards) by his 4th year in the program. Do you really think that Miles can just go and land a freshman big man at that point who will come in AS A FRESHMAN and be as good or better than Vooch would be his 5th year as a RS Senior? I think that is being wildly optimistic beyond reason. The more rational approach would be to preserve the ability to retain Vooch for that 5th year of service when he will be at his PEAK strength and productiveness. That is exactly the approach that a program like NU should be taking that is trying to find diamonds in the rough and hidden gems and develop them into players that can compete at a high level by their 4th and 5th years in the program. Vooch gained absolutely nothing by playing 10 minutes this year that he couldn't have also gained by simply practicing with the team every day just as he did, whether he played those 10 minutes or not. And if Vooch turns out to be a bust and it becomes obvious he will never be able to play at this level, Miles could help him find a new lower-level school, and as I said above, he would still have EXACTLY the same amount of eligility remaining at that new school. There is no gain to him by saving the RS for the transfer process. I think not redshirting him was for the best if he does stay at UNL, though. That way he only takes up a scholly for 4 years instead of 5. As I already stated, if it becomes apparent that he wil never develop into a productive big man, then Miles could help him find a new school at any time during his tenure here. Miles is not required to keep him for all 5 years. This is common and happens at every school every year. The coach sits the player down and says"Vooch, we thank you for all your efforts and you are welcome to stay if you want, but I need to be honest and tell you that you probably will never play another minute if you remain here. I wanted to be honest and tell you this so that if you want to transfer, you can start the process now and I will help you find a good school where you can play and be productive." I really don't understand why this is so complicated.

I suppose if you tell yourself something enough times you can convince yourself of it even if it logically doesn't make sense. If Vooch had RS this year, he would still have 4 years of eligibility left. Thus, even if he transferred after next year (or any other year) he would have EXACTLY the SAME amount of eligibility left as he does under the current arrangement where he preserved his RS. However, if Vooch stays, and if he improves, but not until his third year in the program, he will only have 2 years of productive service to this team, whereas if he had RS this year, he would have 3 years productive service to the team, including a 5th year RS Senior year which would be his BEST year of service, and better than any service he will be able to provide under the current arrangement (in which he will only be able to play through his 4th year b/c he will lose his eiligibiltiy after that 4th year). Withey is a prime example of a big man who was terrible his first 2 years, but then blossomed and is now a key cog in a NCAA #1 seed at KU. Let's just hypothetically say that Vooch turns out to be even a poor-man's Withey (which would be very, very good under NU standards) by his 4th year in the program. Do you really think that Miles can just go and land a freshman big man at that point who will come in AS A FRESHMAN and be as good or better than Vooch would be his 5th year as a RS Senior? I think that is being wildly optimistic beyond reason. The more rational approach would be to preserve the ability to retain Vooch for that 5th year of service when he will be at his PEAK strength and productiveness. That is exactly the approach that a program like NU should be taking that is trying to find diamonds in the rough and hidden gems and develop them into players that can compete at a high level by their 4th and 5th years in the program. Vooch gained absolutely nothing by playing 10 minutes this year that he couldn't have also gained by simply practicing with the team every day just as he did, whether he played those 10 minutes or not. And if Vooch turns out to be a bust and it becomes obvious he will never be able to play at this level, Miles could help him find a new lower-level school, and as I said above, he would still have EXACTLY the same amount of eligility remaining at that new school. There is no gain to him by saving the RS for the transfer process.

I don't think he'll necessarily play over those guys, but having a guy like Benny coming off your bench, even for only 5 minutes a game can go a long way over the course of the season. The game will slow down for him as he matures. Just because he doesn't start doesn't mean he can't be an important player on the team. I don't know whether he'll be here TWO years from now, I do think he'll be here next year. In giving him those 5 minutes, you just took 5 minutes of playing time away from Nate Hawkins, Tai Webster or someone else. Assuming the newcomers pan out (not guaranteed, I know), we'll have very good depth at the guard spots next year without Benny Parker. With Biggs, Gallegos, Webster and Hawkins, I don't see where 5 minutes per game should be going to Parker. Just my opinion. I don't know if he will play or not next year or ever. I'm just saying these conversations really remind me of the ones people were having about Ubel four years ago. A few thoughts on this: 1. Comparing Ubel to BP is apples to oranges. Ubel is a post player. Post players almost always take longer to develop and grow into their bodies as comparted to guards. Post players have something BP will never have, height and size. Thus, if a big man can slowly develop his game, his productiveness can increase exponentially. This generally is not true with guards, especially smaller guards. 2. In regards to Ubel's freshman and sophmore year, much of the discussion wasn't so much as to whether he was worthy of retaining a scholarship. Most of the discussion was whether he should have been playing as much or more minutes than Standhardinger. There were very legitimate arguments in that regard, including the prospect that Christian would leave b/c Doc kept him on the bench almost the whole game. 3. Last, we all agree that Ube's is a great person and a great ambassador for the university. Everybody likes Ubes. But the reality is that if all of MIles recruits and scholarship players are of the same talent and ability as Ubel, then Miles will continue to finish in the bottom tier of the league and will be fired after 5 or 6 years, just like Doc. That is simply the reality. Even in his senior year, Ubel wasn't anywhere close to a premier player in the B1G. And this doesn't even factor in his freshman, soph and junior years when he wasn't nearly as productive as he was this year. A team is always comprised of underclassmen and upperclassmen. Miles will need players who can be very productive even as freshman and sophmores, not just their senior year. And once those players reach their senior year, Miles will need elite talent and production from many of them. For instance, a player like Shields is kind of a "floor" of the type of player Miles needs to recruit. Players that can come in and contribute very solid and productive minutes as freshman. They may have ups and downs, but they show they have the talent to compete in this league and continue to get better. Anything less than that is never going to get us into the top half of league b/c all the other top teams have underclassmenplayers like that already and will continue to get them. Ubel was nowhere near the talent as a freshman or sophmore that Shields is as a very young true freshman. If Miles wants to take this program to the top half of the conference, then he needs to recruit and retain elite level players. It is that simple. But we all know that Miles is not gong to bat 100%. He is going to have some misses. Every coach does. If he allows all of the current players to stay all 4 years, and allows all of his "misses" to stay all 4 years, it is going to be nearly impossible to rise to get enough elite players on the roster to rise to the top half of the conference because he will only have a couple scholarships available each year (ie, Gallegos is the only senior after next year) and it is almost impossible to bat 100%. If he has 3 to 4 scholarships available each year, then he only needs to bat .500 to make it work. People may not like this reality, but it is the reality and every coach in college BB lives in that reality and has to deal with it just like Miles. Only Miles has an even more difficult job b/c he can "select" elite talent like Duke, UNC, OSU, Mich. St., etc. He has to look for diamonds in the rough. Many of them are going to turn out to be lumps of coal. He can't keep them all for 4 years or he is going to have a locker room with 8 lumps of coach a few pearls and maybe one rough diamond. This isn't enough when OSU, Mich, Indiana, etc, all have a locker room full of finely cut diamonds.

I don't think you get what I am saying. If Miles tells BP in the post-season meeting that he can stay if he wants, but he probably won't ever see the floor again, and then BP "chooses" to leave, do you think that Miles "dismissed" him or didn't "dismiss" him? I am saying it is all semantics. Miles determines who he wants to stay and who he wants to leave and structures his post-season meetings accordingly. Miles can get almost any player to "choose" to leave without ever telling that player that he is "dismissed" or not allowed to return. THe point is that it is the coach, not the player, who dictating what is said in those meetings about the potential for future playing time. Very, very few players are going to return if the coach is telling him that he can stay but probably won't ever see the court again.

All this talk about "BP choosing to leave" vs. "Miles asking him to leave" is a game of semantics. You seem to suggest that you have no problem if BP "chooses" to leave of his own volition, yet you do not agree with Miles if Miles "cuts" him simply b/c MIles doesn't think he is good enough. Well, here is how it will work. If Miles doesn't think BP is good enough, and if Miles would rather have the scholie open for recruiting new players, then in the post-season team meeting, Miles will tell BP "BP, you are a great kid and have been a great teammate and I have enjoyed having you on the team. You are welcome to remain a part of this team, but I think it is only fair to tell you up front that, based on all the players returning, and based on my assessment of who we have coming in, you probably will not play at all either next year or any year after that. I am just telling you this now in case, based on that knowledge, you would like to consider transferring to a smaller school where you could play more." In contrast, if the Miles think Vooch could develop into a good player down the road and wants to keep him, then the meeting goes like this "Vooch, I regret that you couldn't play more this year. I think you have a ton of potential and I consider you a valuable and vital part of this team. You need to gain weight and get stronger, but I believe you are capable and I expect you to get significantly more minutes next year, especially with the graduation of Brandon and Andre, and for your career here to flourish from there. You are critical to our success and I want to you stay and be a part of this team for 4 years, I hope you feel the same." So, are you now satisfied that Miles didn't make the decision and the players did? If so, I have some swampland in Florida to sell you.

As for Gallegos, I feel like he has untapped potential, but unfortunately I don't see him ever fully tapping into it--al least not while he is at NU. Frankly, I don't understand his approach to the game. He took a RS year and clearly worked on his shot. But it appears he worked almost exclusively on this 3-point shot and, for the life of me, I don't understand why. He is athletic enough to go to the rack on a semi-regular basis, but he simply will not do it. And this is NOT b/c of coach Miles. I heard a radio interview Miles early in the season. Miles was asked directly about Gallegos going to the basket. Miles said that they are constantly on him about it, but basically will try it maybe once after they get on him, and then abandon it until they get on him again, and then he may try once, and then abandon, and so forth. Being aggressive and going to the basket is a mentality almost more than a skillset. Some people just don't have the mentality, and Ray clearly doesn't. Frankly, I think it is a waste of talent and ability. Ray should have spent the last two years working on his handles and driving HARD to the rim. He should have had coaches or friends hold the pads and make him fight through them and go up hard, etc. There is no indication he did this. If he wants to take the next step, this is where he needs to go. He can jump out of the gym, but he needs to get waaayyyy tougher, both mentally and physically.

Its always interesting to me that when people analyze players and who may or may not play next year, all they talk about is what that player can do on the offensive end. I assure you, if a player cannot hold down his end of the bargain on defense, then he will not play much. AA and Serg are two classic examples of this. They are riding the pine b/c of their lack of offensive skills. In regards to Biggs, I have heard from someone who was able to attend practice and talk to the coaches that Biggs is electric on offense in breaking down the defense and getting to th basket. But I also heard that he really struggles on defense. In fact, in th practice I heard about, when they were scrimmaging, when Bigg's scout team would go back on defense, Biggs would actually sub out of the scrimmage and one of the assistant coaches would go in in his place. Biggs is athletic enough, but he struggles with the mental part of the game and on the defensive end. Now, these are things he could improve on, but he is going to have to figure those things out before he will be a regular contributor during games next year.

I don't really understand this notion that Serg didn't want to RS. Isn't that a decision for the coach? Since when do players get to dictate such things. Can anyone imagine a freshman FB player demanding to Bo that he get to play is freshman year even though Bo wants him to RS. I can see the door hitting him on the a-- on the way out. Heck, Miles could have even told Serg at the begninning of the season that he would put him on the team roster, but then simply not play him in any games. It would hardly be any difference at all to Serg. What did he play, about 10 minutes all year, none of them of any meaning whatsoever. What if Miles simply had never inserted hin into the game? Boom! Now you have a RS whether he wanted it or not. And if anyone is going to respond by saying that this would have just made Serg upset, I have to ask you in return, does anyone really think Serg is soooo much more happy now that he got to play 10 whole meaningless minutes and burned his RS in the process? Serg either wants to play here or he doesn't. Whether or not Miles played him for the mighty 10 minutes should not have any bearing on that at all.

No offense diehard - but I don't think you could have written anything that more clearly demonstrated my point. You referenced Bo and TM in the same post after discussing TM yelling at his players during a TO. No offense, but to the extent you compared TM's behavior to Bo's behavior, your point is fundamentally flawed because there is no comparison. And that was what my response was directed to, which I made clear. To the extent you were comparing Bo to "other" coaches, I did not respond (other than to say I would not want some like Bobby Huggins coaching this team even if he could win games). But to say that people's attitudes towards a coach are colored by their opinions is also flawed because it is just the reverse. People's opinions of a coach are formed by that coach's actions. And my momma always taught me that "just because someone else does it doesn't make it right." And to pick out one single instance in a 25+ year head coaching career of TO where he got very red in the face while yelling at the refs and suggest that is the same as Bo is out of the realm. Again, no comparison and everyone knows it (and I am not really a TO apologist in any respect.) Again, my response was not directed at comparing Bo to "other coaches", it was comparing Bo to TM's recent behavior, in which there is no comparison. (and with that said, it is possible that TM could end up being more like Bo than not--we don't have enough basis to say at this point. I am just saying that as of what we have witnessed to date, including that Timeout, there is no comparison).

Absolute no comparison between Bo and TM IMO. There is a HUGE difference between a CONTROLLED and completely calculated butt-chewing that a team needs to regain its focus (Miles) vs. a completely out-of-control spewing of unrestrained vitriol by a raving lunatic who is foaming at the mouth. Further, TM's little outburst was directed at the entire team--no individual player was singled out or shamed in any regard. Further, even though I have heard and know that TM can have a sharp tongue, I don't think those words were used in the arena at that time because that was not the proper time for those words, Bo's completely out-of-control tantrums make censors cower and sailors blush. Not to mention his face looks like a madman who is ready to rip the players (or refs) head off, chew on it, and spit it out. When Bo goes on a rage, he is out-of-control. He is raving and ranting because he is utterly beside himself and says the things he says out of rage, not out of correction or teaching. When it reaches that point, it is beyond the pale. Just look at his conduct after the NU v. TX game in the Big 12 championship. He was still enraged almost an hour after the game. He was storming up and down the halls looking like he wanted to beats someone up and yelling "The BCS, that's why they make that call!" to no one in particular while TO was calmly standing in the same hallway to witness the whole ordeal. Bo call's refs names that are unrepeatable in any living room. This is in STARK contrast to TM's technical against Purdue when all TM did was walk to center court and yell "you need to call that travel!" No profanitly laced tirade for the whole world to hear. TM was in control the whole time and it was obvious. THAT Is the huge difference and the whole difference. And for the record, I would never want Bobby Knight to coach here nor would I want a guy like Bob Huggins. There are some things that are more important than winning. I don't believe Bo has reached that point because overall, I think he does care about his players, but my point is there is no comparison between Bo's behavior and TM's at this point.

Nobody should be making any judgments about either coach until at least year 3. Groce runs a very distinct system with a very uptempo, pressing, high energy style of play that demands full buy-in from his players. Until he gets his players, its ridiculous to assess him a coach at Illinois. The previous coach was fired for a reason. He recruited a bunch of prima donnas who didn't play hard and didn't buy in. I don't care what their stars are, that doesn't mean diddly when a new coach comes in with his own style of play. Groce is probably looking for completely different types of players. Besides, Illinois has been in the top 25 almost all year, so to call him a major disappointment after a 3 or 4 game bad stretch is even more ridiculous. FWIW, same thing goes for TM. I wouldn't care if this team went 0-28 this year, I still wouldn't judge him as a bad coach. TM wouldn't recruit a guy like AA if his life depended on it, but that is what he has this year. Each of them is coaching another's guy's players, so very little can be gleaned from any of this. And lest we forget, there were a lot of people saying Doc was going to be a great coach after his first couple years b/c his guys played hard and "he got the most out of his players", yada yada yada. Time will tell, but no negative judgments can be made until year 3. The only exception to this would be if either coach takes his team to the sweet 16 in year 1 or 2, then I think you could say that coach has had a successful start, but I don't you can label either coach as a failure until the third year at a minimum.

TM Miles has made various statements about what he is looking for in his recruits. It seem apparent to me that TM likes three primary things in his guards: 1. The ability to shoot the ball so the the defense has to guard every man on the floor; 2. Combo guards that can play either the PG or the SG; and 3. Taller guards which have the length and athleticism to guard multiple players/position of the opposing team. BP does not meet any of these criteria. Go back and watch the end of the Wisconsin game. Both of the winning shots at the end of the game by Wisconsin were a direct result of the Wisc guard taking advantage of BP's small stature. The first basket, he simply backed him down all the way to the paint and shot over him. The 2nd shot he shot right over him for an easy bucket. BP has shown he can be electric on the fast break, but I don't think he fits TM's system and no matter how much he works on his game, he is not going to get any taller. If he does stay, his role will be minimal IMO. Way too many other options that fit TM's mold coming in next year.

Ubel = Stud Shields = Baller Gallegos = Assassin No doubt. He is a dead-eye assassin 22% of the time!

It is an absolutely stupid rule. However, the call in the game was not correct. Ubel did not hit him with his elbow. No contact was made., missed him by a good 2 or 3 inches. It was an obvious flop and acting job by the Penn St. player. I can understand if the ref had called the flagrant foul live, b/c things happen fast. But it is completely unacceptable to go to the replay and not be able to discern a flop from real contact.