uneblinstu’s postgame chatter: vol 11, ed 8 - Illinois

15 hours ago, HB said:

 it was 2 ADs delaying and making no, or very late and tepid public comments of support.

In terms of Miles contract update, it was essentially a sticky note that said "one more year". The question is how many guys didn't he offer the job to while everyone was twisting in the wind?

20 hours ago, nustudent said:

Eichorst dug a major hole for Moos to dig himself out of.   Pretty much whatever Moos did last spring was going to be criticized by some.

I agree with this though. If Eichorst had extended Miles another year I think Moos still extends him another year.  I also think there is some blowback the other way if Miles is extended two years though we're talking about a guy who just kept tacking years onto Ernie Kent so it really shouldn't bother him at all.

I am not going to defend or chastise Moos necessarily,  I am also not privy to internal conversations that may or may not have taken place, but I do have a humble opinion about what transpired at the end of last season.

When Moos arrived here, he had two major tasks to deal with; fix the issues with football, and reorganize, what had become, a disorganized athletic department.  His efforts were directed to fixing those two issues.  I doubt he really looked hard at any other issue unless it was glaring.  Perhaps he thought that basketball was not a glaring problem and he simply thought he was doing right by providing the one year extension.  NOW, that said, I heard other chatter that makes me doubt my own words.  So, we shall see what happens when this season is completed.  Hopefully we will have great success and Coach Miles will be in a position where he has options.  And his chosen option will be to stay and build a strong, long lasting winning program.

By the way, Mr. Moos did have the time to fire and rehire a tennis and golf coach in addition to what I mentioned above...

5 minutes ago, Huskerpapa said:

I am not going to defend or chastise Moos necessarily,  I am also not privy to internal conversations that may or may not have taken place, but I do have a humble opinion about what transpired at the end of last season.

 

When Moos arrived here, he had two major tasks to deal with; fix the issues with football, and reorganize, what had become, a disorganized athletic department.  His efforts were directed to fixing those two issues.  I doubt he really looked hard at any other issue unless it was glaring.  Perhaps he thought that basketball was not a glaring problem and he simply thought he was doing right by providing the one year extension.  NOW, that said, I heard other chatter that makes me doubt my own words.  So, we shall see what happens when this season is completed.  Hopefully we will have great success and Coach Miles will be in a position where he has options.  And his chosen option will be to stay and build a strong, long lasting winning program.

 

By the way, Mr. Moos did have the time to fire and rehire a tennis and golf coach in addition to what I mentioned above...

I'm not going to go so easy on Moos.  There are two revenue-generating sports in an athletic department.  Cleaning up messes in other spots won't preclude an AD from attending to the two sports that bring in bucks.  If, as you imply, he just was too busy with other things (wedding to plan, wife to murder, Gilder to blame for it, he's swamped), then he needs to prioritize his work better.  You don't ignore the revenue programs.

1 hour ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

I'm not going to go so easy on Moos.  There are two revenue-generating sports in an athletic department.  Cleaning up messes in other spots won't preclude an AD from attending to the two sports that bring in bucks.  If, as you imply, he just was too busy with other things (wedding to plan, wife to murder, Gilder to blame for it, he's swamped), then he needs to prioritize his work better.  You don't ignore the revenue programs.

There are three: Football, Men's Basketball, and Volleyball.

I'm pretty sure I regret dredging up this thread...

4 minutes ago, 49r said:

I'm pretty sure I regret dredging up this thread...

So, basically it's just another normal day in the Haymarket Hardwood, then. Got it!

18 minutes ago, ladyhusker said:

@Norm Peterson, well-played quote game.

 

I guess I think the AD's job is to do the best thing in the long-term for their athletic department. Yes, you have to mitigate fan/donor sentiment, but leading by popular vote is a terrible way to manage a very complicated multi-million dollar business, which essentially is what Nebraska Athletics is. So Moos' job isn't to not get yelled at on message boards, it's to do what's best for the long-term success of the program, and by just about any metric I think the way things played out at the end of last year is a spectacular failure to do that. I think there is no real good end of the story from what Moos (and his administration) set up last year.

 

If Miles is your guy, you back him. Your phone calls and emails and cheerleading act in the weeks just prior to this whole debacle would lead folks to believe you thought he was a successful coach. The committee disagreeing shouldn't affect that, especially when it's your own credibility on the line. You get him to the industry standard for contract lengths because if you don't, you're creating another recruiting/perception hurdle for no reason. If money is a concern (...is it really? Personally I very much doubt it) you negotiate the terms of that, but since you're the guy who apparently had no problem renewing Ernie Kent every year with absolutely piss-poor results, this is a MUCH easier spin job to do and you literally have an entire staff of people to do just that. You highlight the reasons for optimism, give Miles a two-year extension, and maybe some message board folks aren''t super happy but you still have a guy who is popular with donors, who runs a clean program (something I think that will become more of a commodity soon), and who is coming off of one of the best years in school history. It isn't a stretch to call it a good day.

 

If Miles is NOT your guy, you take decisive action and let him go. You better hope the person you get instead is clean and can do the things Miles did do for the program, but again, you have a staff whose sole job is to spin your actions to the public. He had one good year, several poor ones, yada yada. Personally I think this is a poor choice, but clearly there are those out there who think it's the right call, so I'll let them be the ones to speak up for Door #2 here.

 

The one thing that would be absolutely awful for your department's long-term success is exactly what went down. You told your coach that he's not your guy but you couldn't really do any better, so you might as well ride with him one more year. So instead of being the one to write the script, you're hoping that either a., your coach tanks so you can fire him without anyone yelling at you, or b., if the year does go well, his sense of loyalty is much higher than yours and he wants this job more than you wanted him. And while I can't speak for anyone else, I'd say that if I were in Miles' shoes, I'd be throwing up the deuces at the end of the year to the guy who basically told me he'd take me to prom only because last year's queen wouldn't go with him, but now I'm the one with the crown and he's the schmuck who NOW thinks I'm worth dating for real.

 

I'm not saying there was an easy decision to be made, or that Eichorst didn't set up a rough call for Moos. But he's paid, handsomely, to deal with this exact thing. And I really don't see how the long-term success of the athletic department is improved by the twisting-in-the-wind scenario he created.

My goodness.  Let's lock this thread right now and put this up for post of the year.

On 12/15/2018 at 9:24 AM, ladyhusker said:

This was all hashed out back in April, but for good times' sake and because I'm procrastinating my monstrous to-do list today, I'll bite. But I'm going to take the lazy way out and paste here what I posted then, because I'm cocky enough to think it basically all still holds true. (But I'm on my phone so please forgive the lack of formatting.)

I'll add that I also think Moos impacted his own credibility in all this -- if he truly believed his team was worthy of a spot in the NCAA last year, he would have acted accordingly. Now whenever he calls someone to pump up a Husker team, in any sport, the appropriate response should be "Why should I believe you? You didn't even believe in your own guy enough to act like what you said was true last time." Say what you will about UCF looking silly claiming the national title in football last year -- there's no doubt they believed in their team, and put their money where their mouth was. There's something to be said for that kind of belief in your guy.

 

It is not incongruent for Moos to both believe that we deserved to be in the NCAA tournament, what else was he suppose to do in that situation, while still being unwilling to extend TM contract beyond what he did. You did well this year but we have to see sustained success beyond 1 year. Remember prior to '17-'18 TM had only one winning season which was followed by significant collapse.

-----

Here's the thing -- I think 2018-19 is only another do-or-die year because that's what the narrative became after the season.

Rewind six-ish weeks. Selection Sunday just happened and we were left out, but Bill Moos had spent the last week calling everyone in his phone to tell them how awesome Nebrasketball is. We're sitting at 22-10, which by most standards (especially in Nebraska) is a good season. We had a double-bye in the Big Ten Tournament, and yes, we lost to Michigan, but so did a couple really good teams, so while that sucks, it's not like we're not in good company. And the NIT may have inexplicably just crapped on us, but it's a team we played once already to start the season and jumped out to a 20-point lead at halftime so a win isn't impossible.

 

What else was he suppose to do? He fought for his school. Was he not suppose to fight for the team to get into the Tournament. Your view is one that if he fights for the team then he must also extend TM more than 1 year OR not fight for the team and extend 1 year. That is a no win situation.

Let's say that, at that point, the AD announces that despite what the committee decided, this was a really good season and we believe we're heading the right direction (because dang it, everyone who ever met Bill Moos in a bar once at a Final Four has heard from him this week about how great this team is and why we deserved to be in the tourney), and so with that in mind, we're looking forward to building on this year's success and taking the next step in 2018-19 with Tim Miles, who has received a 2-year extension. Could he still fire Miles if next year goes poorly? Sure. But does it also highlight the good things about this season (I can think of at least 22 of them right off the bat...) and give us a little momentum in the offseason? Yep. Maybe we still lose in Starkville, but maybe everyone isn't so pissed off when they go, knowing that at least their administration thinks they accomplished something. Or maybe we even say this conversation and announcement all happens after Moos and Miles met the first time...probably still works out OK.

 

Is one year in a row enough to say we were heading a good direction? That's debatable. Remember we've seen this movie before and the last time that 1 year in a row of a good direction was followed by a complete collapse. Recall that the '18-'19 season success hinged on the decisions made by Palmer and Copeland, which to that point had not been made. Was this season going to be a repeat of '13-''14? It very well could have been, if history was any indicator. We were playing for our lives in the BIG Tourny and for respect against Miss St. We laid an egg in both instances similar to the end of our '13-'14 season. 

Instead, we got a whole bunch of silence, a ton of rumors (some of which may or may not be true, but it plants speculation regardless), and now a pall over what could have been a pretty important offseason with a coach who now looks like a lame duck and an AD who looks like he doesn't believe in his coach. All this so he could weigh out whether to fire a guy who just got a school record for conference wins and placed 4th in the Big Ten? Wait on it a year. If we suck, call your coach of choice and offer him a boatload of money then, and we're really no worse for it. If we win, great, we've got a winner. But this do-or-die narrative was cosigned, if not created, by the administration's lack of support and decisive action at the appropriate time.

 

It's debatable if he looked like a lame duck. I would interpret it as prove that last season wasn't an aberration.

The ultimatum season didn't need to happen. Maybe Shawn Eichorst painted Bill Moos into a corner, but Moos turned around and pooped in it. He (and his staff) had the opportunity to write their own narrative and this is what they chose. I think that's certainly worthy of criticism, because I think all this could have all been avoided with some competent PR, and instead, we're treated to a doom-and-gloom offseason and a pressure cooker inside PBA next year.

 

There is no "maybe", Eichorst did paint Moos in a corner. Their narrative was that this season was important for Miles. It was going to be a tense off season regardless while we waited for the decisions from Palmer and Copeland. Miles has risen to the challenge and will be rewarded more than if he signed a longer extension last season. 

1 hour ago, ladyhusker said:

And while I can't speak for anyone else, I'd say that if I were in Miles' shoes, I'd be throwing up the deuces at the end of the year to the guy who basically told me he'd take me to prom only because last year's queen wouldn't go with him, but now I'm the one with the crown and he's the schmuck who NOW thinks I'm worth dating for real.

 

Unless we are able to make an incredible run in the NCAA tourny TM won't be getting any big time offers. Instead what is going to happen is that he will be rewarded handsomely, much more so than if he had signed a longer term contract last season. If that doesn't happen then we can definitely criticize Moos as having it out for TM as is implied. My view is that how Moos handled this decision was in the best interest of our basketball program based on the hand he was dealt by Eichorst. 

You argue that the pressure at the end of last season, specifically following selection Sunday may have negatively impacted our play in the NIT so with that logic it could be said that the "prove it" year has had the opposite effect thus far this season.

3 hours ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

I'm not going to go so easy on Moos.  There are two revenue-generating sports in an athletic department.  Cleaning up messes in other spots won't preclude an AD from attending to the two sports that bring in bucks.  If, as you imply, he just was too busy with other things (wedding to plan, wife to murder, Gilder to blame for it, he's swamped), then he needs to prioritize his work better.  You don't ignore the revenue programs.

Are you ignoring the program if you rely on an Executive Associate Director of Athletics to be your eyes and ears?  I agree whole heartedly that our/my basketball program should not be ignored.  But one man never misses a Husker basketball game, home or away.  That man is Marc Boehm.  There is a lot of debate about the exact role of Marc, but he sure seems to be at the forefront for the administration for Husker Men's basketball.  

Again, I am as critical of Mr. Moos relating to basketball as anybody; I was simply attempting to provide a different possible perspective.  

29 minutes ago, Ron Mexico said:

1 hour ago, ladyhusker said:

 

Unless we are able to make an incredible run in the NCAA tourny TM won't be getting any big time offers.

I think one of the tenets of this argument is this exact quote. Many people on this board, myself included, thinks now and thought back then this is exactly what is going to happen. And if you subscribe to that thinking its maddening to watch this play out. Not the basketball of course

1 hour ago, Ron Mexico said:

Is one year in a row enough to say we were heading a good direction? That's debatable. Remember we've seen this movie before and the last time that 1 year in a row of a good direction was followed by a complete collapse. Recall that the '18-'19 season success hinged on the decisions made by Palmer and Copeland, which to that point had not been made. Was this season going to be a repeat of '13-''14? It very well could have been, if history was any indicator. We were playing for our lives in the BIG Tourny and for respect against Miss St. We laid an egg in both instances similar to the end of our '13-'14 season. 

 

If the only thing the AD is looking at is wins/losses to determine the trajectory of the season why is everyone so excited about a 4-8 record for Frost this year? 

Oh, it's likely because there's always more to the story than just wins/losses. In TM's case, the trajectory of the program has been clearly on the rise, maybe not the results in the W/L column, but the talent level has done nothing but dramatically climb in his time here. If the AD can't see that from wherever he watches games then he's not paying much attention. The only reason the decisions by Palmer and Copeland were so important is because they were playing for Nebraska, not GTown and Miami. I love how having guys that are getting NBA attention becomes a negative for the coach because they might leave.

As for him not being perceived a lame duck, read nearly any off season article that came out after the tepid one year extension from Moos and find one that doesn't somehow imply he was on the hot seat. If you are truly doing what's in the best interest of the basketball program then take away excuses and do everything you can to make your coach successful. Maybe do things for the basketball coach like you did by clearing the path for your football coach to have practices in the morning when he wants them. Things like that speak to commitment and investment in your coaches and programs. One year extensions that even potentially inhibit recruiting do not.

43 minutes ago, cornfed24-7 said:

I think one of the tenets of this argument is this exact quote. Many people on this board, myself included, thinks now and thought back then this is exactly what is going to happen. And if you subscribe to that thinking its maddening to watch this play out. Not the basketball of course

How about instead of getting ahead of ourselves lets just get to the tourny and win 1. I truly believe with all of my being that this is the year.

10 minutes ago, Buglem said:

If the only thing the AD is looking at is wins/losses to determine the trajectory of the season why is everyone so excited about a 4-8 record for Frost this year? 

 

Oh, it's likely because there's always more to the story than just wins/losses. In TM's case, the trajectory of the program has been clearly on the rise, maybe not the results in the W/L column, but the talent level has done nothing but dramatically climb in his time here. If the AD can't see that from wherever he watches games then he's not paying much attention. The only reason the decisions by Palmer and Copeland were so important is because they were playing for Nebraska, not GTown and Miami. I love how having guys that are getting NBA attention becomes a negative for the coach because they might leave.

 

As for him not being perceived a lame duck, read nearly any off season article that came out after the tepid one year extension from Moos and find one that doesn't somehow imply he was on the hot seat. If you are truly doing what's in the best interest of the basketball program then take away excuses and do everything you can to make your coach successful. Maybe do things for the basketball coach like you did by clearing the path for your football coach to have practices in the morning when he wants them. Things like that speak to commitment and investment in your coaches and programs. One year extensions that even potentially inhibit recruiting do not.

I'll concede that wins/losses aren't always the primary indicator but at some point it has to matter. Maybe not year one but year 5? It should be a legitimate concern. 

Will also concede the improved talent although, again, there is a legitimate concern about his ability to hold on to that talent. When has there ever been an issue under TM with guys leaving early for a legit chance at playing in the NBA? TP  and WP left early for the NBA but the reality was that neither one had a chance of playing in the NBA the year they left. BTW, props definitely go to TM and his staff for convincing IC and JPJ staying for their senior year. Focusing only on the NBA ignores legitimate concerns about all of the other players that have transferred. A successful program is sustained by a certain amount of player stability. 

Having a standard 4-5 year contract does not mean a coach is perceived as not being on the hot seat. Never has. TM would have been considered, by those same publications, as being on the hot seat regardless. 

You did hit on my one major concern about only extending a year and that is how it  impacts recruiting. 

24 minutes ago, Ron Mexico said:

I truly believe with all of my being that this is the year.

 

At a minimum we can agree on this

2 hours ago, Ron Mexico said:

Unless we are able to make an incredible run in the NCAA tourny TM won't be getting any big time offers.

If this is the year we win a tournament game, Tim's biggest and best offer will come from.....University of Nebraska - Lincoln! I doubt anyone will match our offer in terms of money, fan support, facilities, ect....

2 minutes ago, The Polish Rifle said:

If this is the year we win a tournament game, Tim's biggest and best offer will come from.....University of Nebraska - Lincoln! I doubt anyone will match our offer in terms of money, fan support, facilities, ect....

This so much.  I thought Moos did Tim dirty last spring, but I hope Tim makes him pay through the nose after this season.  That's the one positive I hope Miles can focus on.  If he comes through this year, he is going to have so much more leverage for a huge raise than he did last year.  So if Tim is a guy who believes in himself, he could easily look at the contract situation as a big plus knowing(I hope) he is going to win big this year.

5 minutes ago, The Polish Rifle said:

If this is the year we win a tournament game, Tim's biggest and best offer will come from.....University of Nebraska - Lincoln! I doubt anyone will match our offer in terms of money, fan support, facilities, ect....

The most important factor is that TM wants to be here.

1 minute ago, RedEyedFanatic said:

This so much.  I thought Moos did Tim dirty last spring, but I hope Tim makes him pay through the nose after this season.  That's the one positive I hope Miles can focus on.  If he comes through this year, he is going to have so much more leverage for a huge raise than he did last year.  So if Tim is a guy who believes in himself, he could easily look at the contract situation as a big plus knowing(I hope) he is going to win big this year.

I can guarantee that Moos will gladly give him that raise. 

36 minutes ago, The Polish Rifle said:

If this is the year we win a tournament game, Tim's biggest and best offer will come from.....University of Nebraska - Lincoln! I doubt anyone will match our offer in terms of money, fan support, facilities, ect....

I think Minnesota could make a pretty compelling pitch for him.  I'm lowkey hoping the Gophers have a good year this year and they keep Richie around a little longer...

42 minutes ago, The Polish Rifle said:

If this is the year we win a tournament game, Tim's biggest and best offer will come from.....University of Nebraska - Lincoln! I doubt anyone will match our offer in terms of money, fan support, facilities, ect....

There are a lot of people out there -- and I mean A LOT -- who don't seem to understand how such things will be perceived on a national level.  That's in part due to the fact that, paradoxically, while these people (many of whom post on the Rivals board) ridicule our program as a laughingstock, they nevertheless think we can just go out and get whatever coach we want and that recruits should want to flock to Lincoln, Nebraska to play whatever sport just because we'd like them to.

Nationally, this job has been perceived as a dead-end.  It's hard to recruit here; it's hard to win here; and it's impossible to satisfy a donor class who's more familiar with football success under a HOF legend.  We're the ONLY P6 program to have NEVER won an NCAA tourney game and, until Miles took us there in season 2, we hadn't even been invited to the dance in 20 years.

Making the dance in season 2 got people's attention.  If he gets there again and, for the sake of argument, wins a game or two, he will be viewed as a miracle worker.

Will Nebraska be able to match any other offers in terms of money?  Sure.  In terms of contract length?  Maybe.  In terms of having an athletic director who didn't publicly diss you by dragging out the discussion of what to do with your deal a year ago after you set the school record for conference wins in a season?  Uh, I think ANYWHERE else is going to be able to beat that.

Uh, thanks Nebraska for your interest, but I'm going to go with the program whose AD didn't publicly shit on me last March and April.

Haven't had much time today to chime back in, sorry! To briefly address some of this -- I think some of it will just have to be an agree-to-disagree thing, because it seems to be in the eye of the beholder and none of us has the eyes that really matter (Miles' or Moos'). From where I sit, from what I've heard, and what I've been able to piece together, I think Moos made a mistake. I do think it's incongruent to battle for your team one day, and the next say "never mind, he didn't really prove anything after all". It's only a no-win if you can't make a decent argument to back up your actions, which wouldn't have been that hard to do (especially from the guy who happily gave Ernie Kent a better deal after worse results). 

If this year had the potential to go as well as we hoped it would -- and knock on wood, so far it has -- it just seems foolhardy to me to leave it up to Miles' sensibilities to determine how offended he should be by the pittance Moos offered. What's the worst-case scenario in giving him the extension and pumping some sunshine about why you did it? We pay a little more if you can him the next year? I tend to think money isn't a problem. What's the worst-case scenario in NOT giving him the extension, and letting him twist in the wind for a while first? You give the appearance of being against your own coach, you leave everything open a bunch of speculation, you potentially hurt recruiting, and when the coach DOES deliver, you get into a bidding war against a school that wants his services as well (and wind up paying more for him than you would have had to the year before), and have to rely on the fact that yes, at one point he did want to be here, but now that you set yourself up as the guy who didn't really believe in him he may be less inclined to want to keep working for you.

Maybe my take is wrong, and Miles just really wants to be here, or can be paid enough to want to be here. Maybe this is all water under the bridge and they're totally fine. But as someone much larger than me might say, this just seems like pretty, um, risky roadz.

Let me put this more succinctly than I did above:  If Tim Miles can take Nebraska to the dance twice in 7 seasons when they hadn't been there in 20 years before he arrived, and can win an NCAA tourney game when they'd never done that before in program history ...

Let's just say that, nationally, our coach is probably held in much higher esteem than he is by many of our own fans, including a number of ignorant louts who commonly post on the Huskers Online main board.