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Observations from Nebraska State Tournament

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We need all the Ade, and Tai we can get so if that's an accurate comparison than I think we have a good ball player coming in, I'm still not sure on Wingett I don't think he'd walk on but I also don't know if he warrants a scholarship.

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Wingett is an interesting prospect.  I like him better than the kid from Springfied, Missouri that we've shown interest in but Rez kids generally don't do well off the Rez esp at major universities.  It might be a huge risk for Miles to take him as a "plan A".

 

As far as PG's go, I'm surprised Noah Vedral from Bishop Neumann doesn't get much mention.  I know he's football prospect but he is one hell of a PG.  That kid could score 30 a game (in an efficient manner) but runs the show for his team flawlessly & scores when needed.  He could play any class & play just as effective/efficient.

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

 

Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

 

Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.

 

All that and it would lead to more bad basketball. The better you are, the faster you can play. If you're not at that level, playing faster just leads to more mistakes. And the vast majority of high school players I've seen in this state are not ready to play at a faster tempo.

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.

All that and it would lead to more bad basketball. The better you are, the faster you can play. If you're not at that level, playing faster just leads to more mistakes. And the vast majority of high school players I've seen in this state are not ready to play at a faster tempo.
What a better way to get them to that level then...

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

 

Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.

 

All that and it would lead to more bad basketball. The better you are, the faster you can play. If you're not at that level, playing faster just leads to more mistakes. And the vast majority of high school players I've seen in this state are not ready to play at a faster tempo.

 

they need to do whatever they can to get teams from stalling for an entire quarter. nobody wants to watch that. I'm not saying they need a 30 second shot clock, but 45 seconds would make sense.

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It might be rough at first, but I think everyone would adjust.  The concern would be some of the more rural areas where there may not be a lot of people willing or able to go through the training and learning curve. 

 

While I want a shot clock desperately as I believe it would help the development of D1 talent in the state, I think the mere cost associated with the change (from purchasing and installing shot clocks to training and supplying clock operators) will keep it ever from happening.  I also firmly believe that there are some less urban areas that would never support a shot clock vote because they feel it would only further exploit disparities in athleticism.

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

 

We can't even train the officials to call traveling now!

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The operator is a difficult job. I was sitting by Jommy Motz and I asked him about it and it would be tough to do because of the operator and basketball knowledge one has to have.

Here are highlights of Changs first 7 games as a sophomore. This guy is gonna be so damn good.

http://www.hudl.com/athlete/4910786/highlights/322844389

Granted, it's just highlights, but he has some superb touch and range.  Plus he's got some ball skills even if it's not real polished right now.  He'd be a kid who could really stretch the defense.

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The operator is a difficult job. I was sitting by Jommy Motz and I asked him about it and it would be tough to do because of the operator and basketball knowledge one has to have.

Here are highlights of Changs first 7 games as a sophomore. This guy is gonna be so damn good.http://www.hudl.com/athlete/4910786/highlights/322844389

Granted, it's just highlights, but he has some superb touch and range.  Plus he's got some ball skills even if it's not real polished right now.  He'd be a kid who could really stretch the defense.
Agree!

I would love to land this kid!

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Yes, if he doesn't get any bigger height wise, he could possibly play the 2 if we had a really good PG. if not he can play the 3. If you watch him on some of the breaks he glides right by people. When I watched him at the state tourney he looked like his game is made for the big 12 or PAC. He isn't very physical even on offense, he can get to the rim but I question his physicality, but as a sophomore, that can get better. I was shocked by how well he shot the ball.

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?
Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.
All that and it would lead to more bad basketball. The better you are, the faster you can play. If you're not at that level, playing faster just leads to more mistakes. And the vast majority of high school players I've seen in this state are not ready to play at a faster tempo.
What a better way to get them to that level then...

 

Simply making players play faster will never make them better players. It takes more than that. High school basketball is a different animal than college and pro and it should be enjoyed for what it is. Trying to make it what it is not will just make it a bad version of what it is not.  Nebraska is a rural state meaning most basketball teams are from small schools and you just are never going to get the majority of schools at that level to a place where they can play at the speed necessary to be successful with a shot clock. And it may not seem like it it Nebraska, but Class B is small school basketball. 

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.

All that and it would lead to more bad basketball. The better you are, the faster you can play. If you're not at that level, playing faster just leads to more mistakes. And the vast majority of high school players I've seen in this state are not ready to play at a faster tempo.

they need to do whatever they can to get teams from stalling for an entire quarter. nobody wants to watch that. I'm not saying they need a 30 second shot clock, but 45 seconds would make sense.

High school basketball is a different animal all together. I'm sure not everyone will agree with me but high school basketball is about giving kids an opportunity to play the great game of basketball. It's not supposed to be a money maker for the school and it's not supposed to be for anyone's viewing pleasure. I like high tempo basketball and tried to coach teams to play that way and sometimes I was successful and sometimes... But they weren't playing so I could coach and they're not playing so you can watch. The game should have rules and be officiated in such a way that it best benefits the student-athletes. I don't think a shot clock is is their best interest. I've seen coaches and referees who think the game is about them and I'm sure most of us have seen parents/fans that certainly act like they are owed something. Paying your entry fee to a high school game is not like paying to go to a professional sporting activity. The game should be designed around how can we provide more opportunities for players to play and not what will be the most entertaining for fans. I feel we should just be happy that they allow us in to watch the games.

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

 

Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.

 

All that and it would lead to more bad basketball. The better you are, the faster you can play. If you're not at that level, playing faster just leads to more mistakes. And the vast majority of high school players I've seen in this state are not ready to play at a faster tempo.

 

they need to do whatever they can to get teams from stalling for an entire quarter. nobody wants to watch that. I'm not saying they need a 30 second shot clock, but 45 seconds would make sense.

 

High school basketball is a different animal all together. I'm sure not everyone will agree with me but high school basketball is about giving kids an opportunity to play the great game of basketball. It's not supposed to be a money maker for the school and it's not supposed to be for anyone's viewing pleasure. I like high tempo basketball and tried to coach teams to play that way and sometimes I was successful and sometimes... But they weren't playing so I could coach and they're not playing so you can watch. The game should have rules and be officiated in such a way that it best benefits the student-athletes. I don't think a shot clock is is their best interest. I've seen coaches and referees who think the game is about them and I'm sure most of us have seen parents/fans that certainly act like they are owed something. Paying your entry fee to a high school game is not like paying to go to a professional sporting activity. The game should be designed around how can we provide more opportunities for players to play and not what will be the most entertaining for fans. I feel we should just be happy that they allow us in to watch the games.

 

I don't think anybody is saying that the kids have to play fast, but the dribble around and hold the ball simply because you can do so isn't necessarily teaching them much either.    I would buy the idea that teams were incapable of playing quicker if they were constantly playing school with higher levels of athleticism.  However, as you noted, most of the state is rural in nature, so that means that the smaller schools are playing against other smaller, rural schools.  I find it hard to believe, with a straight face, that the kids from rural areas are incapable of running their offense against other kids from rural areas in 40 seconds or less.  It isn't that they can't do so, it is that they CHOOSE not to do so, especially when they get a lead.  It is this same sort of stall ball at the college level that led to the introduction of the shot clock.

 

Incidentally, the real Dean Smith did just fine even after he was no longer allowed to run his patented 4 corners offense.

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?
Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.
All that and it would lead to more bad basketball. The better you are, the faster you can play. If you're not at that level, playing faster just leads to more mistakes. And the vast majority of high school players I've seen in this state are not ready to play at a faster tempo.
What a better way to get them to that level then...

Simply making players play faster will never make them better players. It takes more than that. High school basketball is a different animal than college and pro and it should be enjoyed for what it is. Trying to make it what it is not will just make it a bad version of what it is not. Nebraska is a rural state meaning most basketball teams are from small schools and you just are never going to get the majority of schools at that level to a place where they can play at the speed necessary to be successful with a shot clock. And it may not seem like it it Nebraska, but Class B is small school basketball.
Very fair point, Dean. I see what you are saying...

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

 

Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.

 

All that and it would lead to more bad basketball. The better you are, the faster you can play. If you're not at that level, playing faster just leads to more mistakes. And the vast majority of high school players I've seen in this state are not ready to play at a faster tempo.

 

they need to do whatever they can to get teams from stalling for an entire quarter. nobody wants to watch that. I'm not saying they need a 30 second shot clock, but 45 seconds would make sense.

 

High school basketball is a different animal all together. I'm sure not everyone will agree with me but high school basketball is about giving kids an opportunity to play the great game of basketball. It's not supposed to be a money maker for the school and it's not supposed to be for anyone's viewing pleasure. I like high tempo basketball and tried to coach teams to play that way and sometimes I was successful and sometimes... But they weren't playing so I could coach and they're not playing so you can watch. The game should have rules and be officiated in such a way that it best benefits the student-athletes. I don't think a shot clock is is their best interest. I've seen coaches and referees who think the game is about them and I'm sure most of us have seen parents/fans that certainly act like they are owed something. Paying your entry fee to a high school game is not like paying to go to a professional sporting activity. The game should be designed around how can we provide more opportunities for players to play and not what will be the most entertaining for fans. I feel we should just be happy that they allow us in to watch the games.

 

I don't think anybody is saying that the kids have to play fast, but the dribble around and hold the ball simply because you can do so isn't necessarily teaching them much either.    I would buy the idea that teams were incapable of playing quicker if they were constantly playing school with higher levels of athleticism.  However, as you noted, most of the state is rural in nature, so that means that the smaller schools are playing against other smaller, rural schools.  I find it hard to believe, with a straight face, that the kids from rural areas are incapable of running their offense against other kids from rural areas in 40 seconds or less.  It isn't that they can't do so, it is that they CHOOSE not to do so, especially when they get a lead.  It is this same sort of stall ball at the college level that led to the introduction of the shot clock.

 

Incidentally, the real Dean Smith did just fine even after he was no longer allowed to run his patented 4 corners offense.

 

You may have missed my point entirely. And I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about dribbling around around and holding the ball. So what if they choose to not shoot the ball as quickly as you like? My point is they shouldn't care a rat's ass what you want them to do. If your best chance to win games is to play slow, then play slow. Just like its not my team's fault if you can't stop mine from fast breaking, if your team isn't good enough to speed mine up, then you need to get better. High school basketball is not for you or me but for high school athletes. If you give me any possible way a shot clock makes things better for the high school athlete and I might reconsider my position. 

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I go to enough high school games and see enough issues with clock operators that I don't see how the local grocery store owner running the clock would handle it. And it will be just another person for fans to criticize. Unless you are going to hire an extra ref just to run the shot clock not sure it will be operated properly. If you are looking to improve the offensive movement in high school basketball the constant hand-checking, grabbing and holding needs to be called on a more consistent basis. But I don't see that happening.

They run the game clock, they keep stats, they run businesses, they raise children,,,honestly, why couldn't you train and trust them to run a shot clock?

Shot clock operator doesn't think ball hits the rim, refs think it does but none of them see shot clock get reset so now comes the delay in deciding how much time to put on shot clock. Now do the refs put more time on the game clock since there was violation? What if player picks up foul in those few seconds that there should've been violation? Does foul not count? This is just like adding more government regulation. The more you add the more issues that will arise. You are just adding more things for the officials to watch when they should be reffing the game.

All that and it would lead to more bad basketball. The better you are, the faster you can play. If you're not at that level, playing faster just leads to more mistakes. And the vast majority of high school players I've seen in this state are not ready to play at a faster tempo.

they need to do whatever they can to get teams from stalling for an entire quarter. nobody wants to watch that. I'm not saying they need a 30 second shot clock, but 45 seconds would make sense.

High school basketball is a different animal all together. I'm sure not everyone will agree with me but high school basketball is about giving kids an opportunity to play the great game of basketball. It's not supposed to be a money maker for the school and it's not supposed to be for anyone's viewing pleasure. I like high tempo basketball and tried to coach teams to play that way and sometimes I was successful and sometimes... But they weren't playing so I could coach and they're not playing so you can watch. The game should have rules and be officiated in such a way that it best benefits the student-athletes. I don't think a shot clock is is their best interest. I've seen coaches and referees who think the game is about them and I'm sure most of us have seen parents/fans that certainly act like they are owed something. Paying your entry fee to a high school game is not like paying to go to a professional sporting activity. The game should be designed around how can we provide more opportunities for players to play and not what will be the most entertaining for fans. I feel we should just be happy that they allow us in to watch the games.

I don't think anybody is saying that the kids have to play fast, but the dribble around and hold the ball simply because you can do so isn't necessarily teaching them much either. I would buy the idea that teams were incapable of playing quicker if they were constantly playing school with higher levels of athleticism. However, as you noted, most of the state is rural in nature, so that means that the smaller schools are playing against other smaller, rural schools. I find it hard to believe, with a straight face, that the kids from rural areas are incapable of running their offense against other kids from rural areas in 40 seconds or less. It isn't that they can't do so, it is that they CHOOSE not to do so, especially when they get a lead. It is this same sort of stall ball at the college level that led to the introduction of the shot clock.

Incidentally, the real Dean Smith did just fine even after he was no longer allowed to run his patented 4 corners offense.

If I were to counter Dean, I'd be typing much of what you said. But then I ask myself, would a 40 second shot clock even be worth it, or even change anything? That's still an eternity... But then I also feel a 30-35 is too short and will just encourage more pressing and more frantic games.

So who knows, I suppose...

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I must say... this a mighty fine debate gentlemen.  I was a very strong supporter of a shot clock before this thread started.  Though I think I still am in favor of a shot clock... my vote isn't as solid as it once was.  Dean brings up some great points as to why the shot clock shouldn't happen.

 

I actually now see where a shot clock might have a negative effect on the game of basketball in small school Nebraska.  If you have a team who is just beating the heck out of a team and who is scoring at will, it is going to be cause that team to take more shots.  I have been in games and seen games where the other team will purposefully run time off of the clock so as to not run up the school as much.  I see many of Deans points and it is certainly swaying my vote a little bit.  Excellent points Dean.

 

On the other hand, as I sit and watch State Tournament games, I feel awful for kids who fight like heck to try and come back and then can't.  The very first game at state at The Bank comes to mind right away.  Skutt was killing Bennington, and the Badgers really tried to fight back.  Skutt did mighty fine running clock later into the 3rd qtr and most of the 4th qtr essentially making it impossible for Bennington to come back.  I feel awful for the kids who put their heart and soul into a season to not have the opportunity to correct a bad half because they can't play basketball in the second half.

 

I do agree in a sense that basketball should be about the kids, but I also think that it is a money maker (ESPECIALLY STATE).  If it was not a money maker, they wouldn't have three separate sessions that cost 7 dollars each to get into.  A single person would have to spend 63 dollars to watch the State Basketball tournament in its entirety.  I want to go for the entertainment... I won't lie... and I know that it is about the kids 100 percent.  I do though find it boring when a team takes the air out of the game if they have a lead.  I also feel bad for the kids who are working their butts off trying to come back and make it a game.

 

It certainly is a grey line.  I can see both sides of the story.  Both sides have some positives and some negatives.  I do not think there is any debate that neither side has a positive or a negative.  I think it is about finding the right fit for high school Nebrasketball.  I can certainly see both sides now.  I am not 100 percent sold for or against shot clocks like I thought I was.  Excellent debate gentlemen and keep it up.  Both sides have a point and I would much rather read this than that political crap on CNN.

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