uneblinstu's Post Game Chatter: Vol 8, Issue 22 - @ Purdue

[bigred4]

Tai is likely one bruised dude tonight.  I am not about to blame the refereeing for our loss today, but geez, it seemed Purdue was allowed to play much more physically than us.  Add to that the ability Purdue had to simply camp in the lane created a bunch of problems for us.

 

But let me bring up one play.  We were trapping Purdue and they had not crossed the center line when the Purdue player called time out.  21 seconds remained on the shot clock, meaning 9 of the 10 seconds had ran off the possession clock.  I THOUGHT that the new rule was that a team only had 10 seconds to advance the ball EVEN if a time out was called.  Purdue inbounded the ball in the backcourt, another two or thee seconds ran off (should have been a ten second violation) and then Shavon picked up his fifth foul.  Why wasn't a ten second violation called???  Am I missing something or am I misinterpreting the rule?

 

This is a newspaper snippet regarding the change I was referencing:

 

In other changes, coaches will no longer be allowed to call timeouts during live ball situations and, with only a few exceptions, teams will get just 10 total seconds to advance the ball past half court instead of resetting the clock if there is a stoppage.

 

Also:

 

The NCAA Playing Rules Oversight Panel, which is chaired by Belmont head coach Rick Byrd, also decided the 10-second backcourt clock will not reset when a timeout is called and they eliminated a coaches’ ability to call live-ball timeouts.

The Purdue guy taking the ball out on the play Shields got his 5th foul took a full step to his left before he threw the ball in.  Should have been traveling before Shields even picked up the foul.

[royalfan]

This is going to sound ridiculous, given the results of the Purdue bigs.  We can beat that team.  They played really well yesterday. I give them credit for that.  Our defense was horrific.  Especially the times we tried to front the post.  That was never going to work.  The zone was really awful as well.  We need to do what we do best on defense against a team like this for the most part.  The difference is we are going to have to double really hard.  And sometimes triple down hard on the post.  Show them different looks.  But a 2nd player has got to come hard each and every time.  And we cannot ever try to front the post.  It is one of the main things you cannot do if you are playing any variation of the pac line defense.  I believe if we came with stronger doubles from the get go, we would have got more turnovers and no way Hammons does that to us.  THey might have got a few more good looks from outside, but as long as we are doing a decent job of identifying the shooters on our rotations, we can overcome that. 

 

This Purdue team is good, not great.  I fully believe we should be able to beat a team like that when they come to Lincoln.  Just because we are smaller is not a good excuse for playing such bad post defense.  The double teams were very weak and many times non existent.  We have more quickness and speed.  Need to take the game to them and force turnovers.  You have to make them uncomfortable.  We didn't. 

 

Another thing I hated to see was sitting both White and Shields with 2 fouls.  Game got away from us at the end of the half as a result.  Halftime is such an arbitrary time in the game.  Who cares about getting them to that point in the game with 2 fouls, while the game is in the process of getting to the point we aren't going to be able to win anyway.  Many coaches do this, and it is really poor strategy IMO. 

[KZRider]

Between them, Benny and McVeigh were 2 for 10 on 3s. Benny either needs to start hitting that shot or stop taking it. If about half of Benny's shots were taken instead by White or Watson or Webster, it would be an improvement. And McVeigh was uncharacteristically poor yesterday. On the other side of the ledger they shot almost 60% on their 3s which was a killer on all those possessions where our interior D did its job well but their outside shot killed us!

 

IMO we are VERY capable of playing with this Purdue team EVEN with Hammons having the outstanding game he had.

 

Now a inquiry for those who are better BB gurus than me (which is just about all of you!): White is such an outstanding shooter beyond the arc why isn't he taking about 8-10 3s every game? What are teams doing to defend him and how should we go about countering that?

[Norm Peterson]

Between them, Benny and McVeigh were 2 for 10 on 3s. Benny either needs to start hitting that shot or stop taking it. If about half of Benny's shots were taken instead by White or Watson or Webster, it would be an improvement. And McVeigh was uncharacteristically poor yesterday. On the other side of the ledger they shot almost 60% on their 3s which was a killer on all those possessions where our interior D did its job well but their outside shot killed us!

 

IMO we are VERY capable of playing with this Purdue team EVEN with Hammons having the outstanding game he had.

 

Now a inquiry for those who are better BB gurus than me (which is just about all of you!): White is such an outstanding shooter beyond the arc why isn't he taking about 8-10 3s every game? What are teams doing to defend him and how should we go about countering that?

When Benny receives a pass where he can catch the ball in rhythm and get off a shot, he needs to do so.  There's a reason he's usually open like that.  If he's not willing to step up and shoot in that situation, he shouldn't play at all.  White isn't always open to take Benny's shots.  Defense keys on him.  White NEEDS Benny to be able to take and make that shot, b/c it'll open things up for White.

 

So, instead of saying Benny shouldn't take that shot (so that White can try to get open for the attempt instead) why don't we just say Benny needs to make a higher percentage of those shots that he HAS to take.

[Huskerpapa]

To be great you have to be willing to take the shot AND hit the shot.  Last year Benny and others would not take the shot.  We are half way home as we are now willing to take the shot...now we have to hit the shots.

[Silverbacked1]

This is going to sound ridiculous, given the results of the Purdue bigs.  We can beat that team.  They played really well yesterday. I give them credit for that.  Our defense was horrific.  Especially the times we tried to front the post.  That was never going to work.  The zone was really awful as well.  We need to do what we do best on defense against a team like this for the most part.  The difference is we are going to have to double really hard.  And sometimes triple down hard on the post.  Show them different looks.  But a 2nd player has got to come hard each and every time.  And we cannot ever try to front the post.  It is one of the main things you cannot do if you are playing any variation of the pac line defense.  I believe if we came with stronger doubles from the get go, we would have got more turnovers and no way Hammons does that to us.  THey might have got a few more good looks from outside, but as long as we are doing a decent job of identifying the shooters on our rotations, we can overcome that. 

 

This Purdue team is good, not great.  I fully believe we should be able to beat a team like that when they come to Lincoln.  Just because we are smaller is not a good excuse for playing such bad post defense.  The double teams were very weak and many times non existent.  We have more quickness and speed.  Need to take the game to them and force turnovers.  You have to make them uncomfortable.  We didn't. 

 

Another thing I hated to see was sitting both White and Shields with 2 fouls.  Game got away from us at the end of the half as a result.  Halftime is such an arbitrary time in the game.  Who cares about getting them to that point in the game with 2 fouls, while the game is in the process of getting to the point we aren't going to be able to win anyway.  Many coaches do this, and it is really poor strategy IMO.

Fully agree that we beat these guys here at the end of the year. Their guard play is average at best and Hammonds won't show up again like that ever again.

[rimshot]

 

Between them, Benny and McVeigh were 2 for 10 on 3s. Benny either needs to start hitting that shot or stop taking it. If about half of Benny's shots were taken instead by White or Watson or Webster, it would be an improvement. And McVeigh was uncharacteristically poor yesterday. On the other side of the ledger they shot almost 60% on their 3s which was a killer on all those possessions where our interior D did its job well but their outside shot killed us!

 

IMO we are VERY capable of playing with this Purdue team EVEN with Hammons having the outstanding game he had.

 

Now a inquiry for those who are better BB gurus than me (which is just about all of you!): White is such an outstanding shooter beyond the arc why isn't he taking about 8-10 3s every game? What are teams doing to defend him and how should we go about countering that?

When Benny receives a pass where he can catch the ball in rhythm and get off a shot, he needs to do so.  There's a reason he's usually open like that.  If he's not willing to step up and shoot in that situation, he shouldn't play at all.  White isn't always open to take Benny's shots.  Defense keys on him.  White NEEDS Benny to be able to take and make that shot, b/c it'll open things up for White.

 

So, instead of saying Benny shouldn't take that shot (so that White can try to get open for the attempt instead) why don't we just say Benny needs to make a higher percentage of those shots that he HAS to take.

 

 

"'Benny needs to make a higher percentage of those shots that he HAS to take."

 

Because Benny is not a pure shooter, that'l never happen. He gets a ton of open looks, but teams know that, play off him and give that up. In a game like this each possession matters and we needed to hit better than 33% on our 3s to keep up. If anything I would've liked to of seen Webster with more 3 attempts than Benny. Gotta have guys on the floor that can consistently hit the 3 and unfortunately we're not there just yet, but close.   

[royalfan]

I think KZ is correct, in that we do need to try to free White up.  Think to Miles first year here, we really tried to get Gallegos looks at all costs.  Granted, we thankfully have way more firepower than that outfit, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get our best shooter a lot of shots.  We also have more guys that can get their own at the end of shot clocks, so spending more time trying to get White a wide open trey might be worth exploring.  It is a fine line though, as our offense is playing pretty well lately as is.  Probably don't need dramatic change, but I wouldn't mind see White getting freed up a little more. 

[Norm Peterson]

I think KZ is correct, in that we do need to try to free White up.  Think to Miles first year here, we really tried to get Gallegos looks at all costs.  Granted, we thankfully have way more firepower than that outfit, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get our best shooter a lot of shots.  We also have more guys that can get their own at the end of shot clocks, so spending more time trying to get White a wide open trey might be worth exploring.  It is a fine line though, as our offense is playing pretty well lately as is.  Probably don't need dramatic change, but I wouldn't mind see White getting freed up a little more. 

My point is that one of the things that will free up White is if the other guys on the floor are a threat to shoot the ball (and make a reasonable percentage of those shots.) 

 

White already takes a significant portion of the team's shots.  I detailed that in a thread sometime last month.  He was, at that point, responsible for something like 1/3 of our total treys and 44% of the makes.  He had (and I'm guessing still has) twice as many attempts as the next guy in line. 

 

(I checked, and that stat still holds:  White has 134 3-point attempts; McVeigh is 2nd on the team with 64.)

 

White is going to get his shots.  But the looks he does get will be better looks if we have other guys on the team taking and making shots as well. 

 

So Benny does need to shoot those shots.  And, in fairness to Benny, he's shooting the ball better this year than ANYONE on the team last year (who had at least 10 attempts.)  He's third on the current team in 3-pt FG% at .345.

 

So, I say let Benny shoot the ball.

[Fullbacksympathy]

Benny is a serviceable 3 point shooter.  We are just used to him not being one.  He's made some really big 3s this year.  I agree, Norm, and a .345 percentage makes him a legitimate threat.  He's just not a weapon like White.  Tai, however, is a weapon from 3 (which is even weirder) at plus .400.  Any guard at the D1 level has to shoot a decent percentage when open or expect not to get D1 minutes.  

[huskerbaseball13]

Benny is a serviceable 3 point shooter.  We are just used to him not being one.  He's made some really big 3s this year.  I agree, Norm, and a .345 percentage makes him a legitimate threat.  He's just not a weapon like White.  Tai, however, is a weapon from 3 (which is even weirder) at plus .400.  Any guard at the D1 level has to shoot a decent percentage when open or expect not to get D1 minutes.  

 

I don't think you can consider him a weapon from deep when he rarely shoots the ball from that range.  Never thought I would say this...but he needs to shoot it more.  His average would likely go down but right now he is making 0.7 three pointers a game. 

[rimshot]

 

I think KZ is correct, in that we do need to try to free White up.  Think to Miles first year here, we really tried to get Gallegos looks at all costs.  Granted, we thankfully have way more firepower than that outfit, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get our best shooter a lot of shots.  We also have more guys that can get their own at the end of shot clocks, so spending more time trying to get White a wide open trey might be worth exploring.  It is a fine line though, as our offense is playing pretty well lately as is.  Probably don't need dramatic change, but I wouldn't mind see White getting freed up a little more. 

My point is that one of the things that will free up White is if the other guys on the floor are a threat to shoot the ball (and make a reasonable percentage of those shots.) 

 

White already takes a significant portion of the team's shots.  I detailed that in a thread sometime last month.  He was, at that point, responsible for something like 1/3 of our total treys and 44% of the makes.  He had (and I'm guessing still has) twice as many attempts as the next guy in line. 

 

(I checked, and that stat still holds:  White has 134 3-point attempts; McVeigh is 2nd on the team with 64.)

 

White is going to get his shots.  But the looks he does get will be better looks if we have other guys on the team taking and making shots as well. 

 

So Benny does need to shoot those shots.  And, in fairness to Benny, he's shooting the ball better this year than ANYONE on the team last year (who had at least 10 attempts.)  He's third on the current team in 3-pt FG% at .345.

 

So, I say let Benny shoot the ball.

 

 

Norm I get what your saying, but, against a team like Purdue it was a possession game and each possession had to count. Against any other team yeah let Benny fire away. We shot 33% on 3s and we probably needed to be around 40% to have a chance to win it. Our season average is 35% so that tells me we're very close to being a real good scoring team. I'd would like to see Websters attempts go up. He only has 37 3pa at 40%. Other than him we just don't have anyone who is a reasonable threat/shooter and can make the 3 consistently at a higher % to free up White for better looks.

[KZRider]

Not counting the anomaly of the NW game where someone who LOOKED like Benny was wearing his uniform, Benny is shooting only 31% from 3 in B1G play. While I agree that he should take SOME shots from there taking 5 shots as he did against Purdue is a mistake. If I were an opposing coach, I would let Benny throw them up and run the risk until he proves otherwise. Tai, on the other hand, would scare me. Over that same stretch of games, he is hitting 50% of his 3s. I know Tai is having great success with his game right now so changing that is probably a mistake.

 

My real point in this is not to abuse Benny because I love having him on our team. I just think we are VERY close to being able to compete with and defeat Purdue in spite of their dominance inside.

[Red Don]

When Benny receives a pass where he can catch the ball in rhythm and get off a shot, he needs to do so.  There's a reason he's usually open like that.  If he's not willing to step up and shoot in that situation, he shouldn't play at all.  White isn't always open to take Benny's shots.  Defense keys on him.  White NEEDS Benny to be able to take and make that shot, b/c it'll open things up for White.

 

 

So, instead of saying Benny shouldn't take that shot (so that White can try to get open for the attempt instead) why don't we just say Benny needs to make a higher percentage of those shots that he HAS to take.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense to me.  It's not that Benny should just 'fire-up' a lot more shots. The key to me in the above is Norm's supposition being where Benny is (relatively) un-guarded and in good position where he catches and shoots the ball comfortably 'in rythm' without even thinking about it. 

[Norm Peterson]

 

When Benny receives a pass where he can catch the ball in rhythm and get off a shot, he needs to do so.  There's a reason he's usually open like that.  If he's not willing to step up and shoot in that situation, he shouldn't play at all.  White isn't always open to take Benny's shots.  Defense keys on him.  White NEEDS Benny to be able to take and make that shot, b/c it'll open things up for White.

 

 

So, instead of saying Benny shouldn't take that shot (so that White can try to get open for the attempt instead) why don't we just say Benny needs to make a higher percentage of those shots that he HAS to take.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense to me.  It's not that Benny should just 'fire-up' a lot more shots. The key to me in the above is Norm's supposition being where Benny is (relatively) un-guarded and in good position where he catches and shoots the ball comfortably 'in rythm' without even thinking about it. 

 

Yeah, exactly.  I've been complaining for several years now -- and I say that so that people know I've been consistent -- that we have too many occasions where a guard will receive a pass with plenty of space to take a shot in rhythm and, instead, they turn it down and reverse the ball.  A catch-and-shoot in rhythm should be a good, fairly high percentage shot. 

 

Benny isn't taking a ton of shots, but we need him or whoever is out there at the guard spot to take shots.  We need it.  Andrew White needs it.  I have no problem at all with Benny taking open jumpers and making roughly 1/3 of them.  He is not depriving White of shot opportunities.  It might seem counter-intuitive, but it actually opens things up for Andrew when you have other players on the team capable of and willing to take threes.

[rimshot]

 

 

When Benny receives a pass where he can catch the ball in rhythm and get off a shot, he needs to do so.  There's a reason he's usually open like that.  If he's not willing to step up and shoot in that situation, he shouldn't play at all.  White isn't always open to take Benny's shots.  Defense keys on him.  White NEEDS Benny to be able to take and make that shot, b/c it'll open things up for White.

 

 

So, instead of saying Benny shouldn't take that shot (so that White can try to get open for the attempt instead) why don't we just say Benny needs to make a higher percentage of those shots that he HAS to take.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense to me.  It's not that Benny should just 'fire-up' a lot more shots. The key to me in the above is Norm's supposition being where Benny is (relatively) un-guarded and in good position where he catches and shoots the ball comfortably 'in rythm' without even thinking about it. 

 

Yeah, exactly.  I've been complaining for several years now -- and I say that so that people know I've been consistent -- that we have too many occasions where a guard will receive a pass with plenty of space to take a shot in rhythm and, instead, they turn it down and reverse the ball.  A catch-and-shoot in rhythm should be a good, fairly high percentage shot. 

 

Benny isn't taking a ton of shots, but we need him or whoever is out there at the guard spot to take shots.  We need it.  Andrew White needs it.  I have no problem at all with Benny taking open jumpers and making roughly 1/3 of them.  He is not depriving White of shot opportunities.  It might seem counter-intuitive, but it actually opens things up for Andrew when you have other players on the team capable of and willing to take threes.

 

 

It's only counter-intuitive when you hit only a 1/3 of your 3s, especially when your at a size disadvantage.

 

So your saying Bennys 1-5 shooting on 3s against Purdue HELPED White get more attempts 2-4 on 3s? I'm just not seeing it.

 

I'll say it again, each possession counted against Purdue in order to have a chance against their size advantage. Hitting a 1/3 of our 3s against a team like Purdue isn't going to beat them, 40% or better gives us a chance.

[Norm Peterson]

Did you know, before he shot the ball, whether Benny was going to make the shot? You can't game plan based on what happened. You have to game plan based on what you want to do. And, yes, it helps Andrew if there are other guys who can take and make shots. Jack was also 1-5. Is it your opinion in hindsight that the only players who should take shots are the ones who ended up making them?

From my perspective, you cannot judge whether a shot was a good or bad shot based on whether it went in or not. There are plenty of examples both ways. A bad shot is still a bad shot even if it happens to find the bottom of the net. By the same token, a good shot is still a good shot even if it misses.

[atskooc]

But if Benny isn't hitting his threes at a decent rate, he's still not worth guarding, thus not opening things up for White.

[hhcmatt]

Apologizes...was occupied Saturday and Sunday...only got to view parts of the game

 

[hhcmatt]

If it was the last 3 years, I'd agree with the "Benny shouldn't shoot 3s camp"

However, he's shooting well above the Gallegos line and has proven he can make shots this year...if the guy is open for a rhythm 3 he should definitely have the green light.

 

I also agree with the thought we should generate as many looks for Andrew White as possible.

[Red Don]

 

 

 

When Benny receives a pass where he can catch the ball in rhythm and get off a shot, he needs to do so.  There's a reason he's usually open like that.  If he's not willing to step up and shoot in that situation, he shouldn't play at all.  White isn't always open to take Benny's shots.  Defense keys on him.  White NEEDS Benny to be able to take and make that shot, b/c it'll open things up for White.

 

 

So, instead of saying Benny shouldn't take that shot (so that White can try to get open for the attempt instead) why don't we just say Benny needs to make a higher percentage of those shots that he HAS to take.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense to me.  It's not that Benny should just 'fire-up' a lot more shots. The key to me in the above is Norm's supposition being where Benny is (relatively) un-guarded and in good position where he catches and shoots the ball comfortably 'in rythm' without even thinking about it. 

 

Yeah, exactly.  I've been complaining for several years now -- and I say that so that people know I've been consistent -- that we have too many occasions where a guard will receive a pass with plenty of space to take a shot in rhythm and, instead, they turn it down and reverse the ball.  A catch-and-shoot in rhythm should be a good, fairly high percentage shot. 

 

Benny isn't taking a ton of shots, but we need him or whoever is out there at the guard spot to take shots.  We need it.  Andrew White needs it.  I have no problem at all with Benny taking open jumpers and making roughly 1/3 of them.  He is not depriving White of shot opportunities.  It might seem counter-intuitive, but it actually opens things up for Andrew when you have other players on the team capable of and willing to take threes.

 

 

It's only counter-intuitive when you hit only a 1/3 of your 3s, especially when your at a size disadvantage.

 

So your saying Bennys 1-5 shooting on 3s against Purdue HELPED White get more attempts 2-4 on 3s? I'm just not seeing it.

 

I'll say it again, each possession counted against Purdue in order to have a chance against their size advantage. Hitting a 1/3 of our 3s against a team like Purdue isn't going to beat them, 40% or better gives us a chance.

 

 

No Doubt you are correct!     (But we do seem to be talking a little 'past' each other.)

 

I'm not trying to speak for Norm, but to me what Norm is saying is that we need Benny to not only take, but Make more of those shots (and you can't make them unless you take them). 

 

I think he is also suggesting that a way Benny may be able to do this is to be in a position where he is comfortable in catching and shooting the ball without even having to think about it.   (How many times have we seen an open player get the ball, only to hesitate then pass it off, especially last season). 

 

Benny has demonstrated he can sink threes when the situation is right.

[Norm Peterson]

But if Benny isn't hitting his threes at a decent rate, he's still not worth guarding, thus not opening things up for White.

Define "decent rate."  He's still over 34% on the season.  That's better than anyone on our team last year.  That's good enough to guard.  But if the scout on him says he never shoots, you can feel more comfortable leaving him open and designing your defense to keep Andrew White from getting good looks.

 

And the point that I made from the very beginning -- which seems to have been lost in all of this discussion -- is not that Benny shouldn't shoot it if he can't make it; it's that Benny shouldn't PLAY if he can't make it.  That's because we need guys on the floor willing to take shots and able to actually make them.  B1G coaches would have no trouble desiging defenses to key on Andrew White and prevent him from getting good looks if our offense involved ONLY trying to get him the ball.

 

On the season, Benny has attempted only 55 3-pointers while White has attempted 134.  To suggest that Benny's attempts come at the expense of White is simply false. 

 

White will not be allowed to get good looks by opposing defenses if he's the only one taking 3-point shots.