What's the problem?

[Norm Peterson 9,682]

There's been a lot of discussion about concerns for the direction of the program on here lately. There could be lots of answers as to why the team seems to be struggling and, more significantly, why the direction of the program in general appears worrisome to many people. If you had to put your finger on it, what's your best guess as to the cause? I've heard individual comments, but I'm curious what the broader population of posters on this forum thinks.

[12dozen 672]

I selected other.  One vote wasn't enough.  If program management includes coaching, I would lean that direction.  They are responsible for recruiting, player development, and the X's and O's.  Regarding program management, not sure you can give AD Moos a pass either.

[KarlHessEatMy.... 368]

I would say player development and coaching style. Their X's and O's just dont fit in with B1G play. I think their coaching style is for a college like South Dakota. 

[redsteve 1,832]

Ok, for discussions sake I'll bite.

 

IF...there are problems we can't seem to shake off....after the season is over will tell the story.  Still believe it's too early to bail out, and pull the rip cord.

 

There are problems right now, no doubt. As far as the list is concerned, no one question covers it all.  As with about everything that has a problem, the combination of issues creates the big problem.

 

I'm more wait and see what is addressed by the staff and fixed. If they don't fix things defense, guard issues, team management, injuries, recruiting and roster shortages., etc etc

...then ...after the season. If no  OVERALL improvement over the last two years....them I'm all ears

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by redsteve

[Norm Peterson 9,682]

18 minutes ago, redsteve said:

Ok, for discussions sake I'll bite.

 

IF...there are problems we can't seem to shake off....after the season is over will tell the story.  Still believe it's too early to bail out, and pull the rip cord.

 

There are problems right now, no doubt. As far as the list is concerned, no one question covers it all.  As with about everything that has a problem, the combination of issues creates the big problem.

 

I'm more wait and see what is addressed by the staff and fixed. If they don't fix things defense, guard issues, team management, injuries, recruiting and roster shortages., etc etc

...then ...after the season. If no  OVERALL improvement over the last two years....them I'm all ears

 

Just FYI, I came up with the list of answers by curating the things I've seen others mention in game threads this season.

 

They're like 3-2, with a conference win over Illinois, so it's still really early, but the angst on the game threads is the worst I've ever seen on the women's board.

 

Correct me if you think I'm wrong on that.

 

We lost for the howevermanieth consecutive time to Creighton and we just got drilled badly by Indiana. So, I'm curious why people think this is happening. I've heard some comments privately, having to do with the same kinds of things people say about Scott Frost -- not experienced at coaching at this level and brought an entire staff of people who similarly didn't have Power 5 chops -- but those comments don't speak for the entire board.

 

I just wanted to know, of the people who have expressed strong concerns on the game threads (and there are many), what you think the problem is.

 

I'm actually just really curious.

[Norm Peterson 9,682]

Also, there might be more than one issue, right? So, it could be a combination of things like @redsteve alluded to above. BUT ... what I was hoping to see was a stratification. If you could only pick THE SINGLE BIGGEST ISSUE what would it be? And then you see one answer get maybe 32% of the vote, another answer 25% and 20%, etc. And then you maybe kind of begin to paint the picture, right? Maybe recruiting seems to be a bigger concern than Xs and Os. Or maybe it's mostly injuries and other factors seem less significant. Some things a coach has no control over; other things go right to the top. Where are we on this?

[All About the Corn 204]

There really are a few items on the list needing attention. I thought after last year Williams would look to make a change with her assistants. Bring in one or maybe two new coaches to bring in a fresh look. She just started using the tools we have here during the shutdown which was written by Sam in the OWH, Culture, player leadership, you get the idea. I selected in game management/adjustments but it could have been player development, or management. With the incoming class you really do not want to lose them by a coaching change so I can see her stay but Moos forcing her hand with some required changes. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by All About the Corn

[12dozen 672]

2 minutes ago, Norm Peterson said:

Also, there might be more than one issue, right? So, it could be a combination of things like @redsteve alluded to above. BUT ... what I was hoping to see was a stratification. If you could only pick THE SINGLE BIGGEST ISSUE what would it be? And then you see one answer get maybe 32% of the vote, another answer 25% and 20%, etc. And then you maybe kind of begin to paint the picture, right? Maybe recruiting seems to be a bigger concern than Xs and Os. Or maybe it's mostly injuries and other factors seem less significant. Some things a coach has no control over; other things go right to the top. Where are we on this?

To me, all of the choices except injury, translate to the coaches.  Recruiting? Coaching.  Development? Coaching.  Xs and Os?  Coaching. Program management? Isn't that coaches?  One could argue, our injury situation is partially caused by recruiting individuals with existing injuries, or history of injuries. Again, coaching.  I'm not hammering on Amy.  The poll is slanted in this direction.

[Norm Peterson 9,682]

1 minute ago, 12dozen said:

To me, all of the choices except injury, translate to the coaches.  Recruiting? Coaching.  Development? Coaching.  Xs and Os?  Coaching. Program management? Isn't that coaches?  One could argue, our injury situation is partially caused by recruiting individuals with existing injuries, or history of injuries. Again, coaching.  I'm not hammering on Amy.  The poll is slanted in this direction.

 

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't trying to slant the poll. I was trying to present the kinds of things I've been reading in the game threads. That's where the slanting is taking place. If you think there are issues that have been raised that aren't covered by what I've written, let me know and I can amend the poll to reflect it.

 

Thanks

[12dozen 672]

10 minutes ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't trying to slant the poll. I was trying to present the kinds of things I've been reading in the game threads. That's where the slanting is taking place. If you think there are issues that have been raised that aren't covered by what I've written, let me know and I can amend the poll to reflect it.

 

Thanks

I understand.  These questions do seem to get raised frequently.  I think most in the forum like Amy, and don't want to get overly critical.  Yet, many have a level of doubt. Are we making progress?  If I could change my vote in this poll (I picked 'other'), I think I'd go with recruiting.  Quality of players, quantity of players, need for development, and ability to execute Xs and Os, all could be improved if recruiting was at a higher level. 

[HB 3,826]

I went with recruiting.   The coaches at this level are all good, it's mostly about having the players.   I mean, there are some who are exceptional at Xs and Os and game planning, vs. just good, but night in and night out you better have enough talent. 

 

 And we are quite deficient in that area right now.   I became really concerned in the class we signed Helms and Brady.   As Sam likes to say, it's a guard's game, and that class was a huge struggle at that spot.   We obviously lost out on some targets and settled.    Both had a history of injury; both struggled to adjust upon getting here (one with some disciplinary issues in addition to physical problems, one with weight and fitness in addition to the injury history).  In a class where we needed a quality point guard, we didn't get one.  And missed even worse the next year at that spot.  We have lacked athleticism across the board for all of Amy's tenure.   That has to improve.   You see that in defense and rebounding.   Nicea was probably the most athletic, and that was a Yori recruit.   The incoming class appears to be much better.   Perhaps the staff will be allowed to see it through, and will follow it up with another good class.   But the track record to date in recruiting is abysmal.   A few decent recruits but not near enough Power 5 players, or ones who weren't damaged goods upon arrival.

 

Had the poll allowed for "check all that apply", I would have checked a few other options, but recruiting is the biggest problem.   I would have skipped Xs and Os and toughness.   Would have checked the next 3 options, but some of those are a result of good old #1.    

 

[HB 3,826]

2 hours ago, 12dozen said:

I selected other.  One vote wasn't enough.  If program management includes coaching, I would lean that direction.  They are responsible for recruiting, player development, and the X's and O's.  Regarding program management, not sure you can give AD Moos a pass either.

 

Just curious, what do you think Moos could have done, or could be doing, other than making a change at head coach?   

[Norm Peterson 9,682]

@HB I didn't see a way to do "check all that apply." If a poll can be done that way, I didn't see how to do it. I'll check with @hhcmatt.

[KarlHessEatMy.... 368]

12 minutes ago, HB said:

I went with recruiting.   The coaches at this level are all good, it's mostly about having the players.   I mean, there are some who are exceptional at Xs and Os and game planning, vs. just good, but night in and night out you better have enough talent. 

 

 And we are quite deficient in that area right now.   I became really concerned in the class we signed Helms and Brady.   As Sam likes to say, it's a guard's game, and that class was a huge struggle at that spot.   We obviously lost out on some targets and settled.    Both had a history of injury; both struggled to adjust upon getting here (one with some disciplinary issues in addition to physical problems, one with weight and fitness in addition to the injury history).  In a class where we needed a quality point guard, we didn't get one.  And missed even worse the next year at that spot.  We have lacked athleticism across the board for all of Amy's tenure.   That has to improve.   You see that in defense and rebounding.   Nicea was probably the most athletic, and that was a Yori recruit.   The incoming class appears to be much better.   Perhaps the staff will be allowed to see it through, and will follow it up with another good class.   But the track record to date in recruiting is abysmal.   A few decent recruits but not near enough Power 5 players, or ones who weren't damaged goods upon arrival.

 

Had the poll allowed for "check all that apply", I would have checked a few other options, but recruiting is the biggest problem.   I would have skipped Xs and Os and toughness.   Would have checked the next 3 options, but some of those are a result of good old #1.    

 

 

I honestly think she did really well with recruiting the year of Haiby. That class had the potential in my eyes to be a top 15 team after watching them their freshman year. But again I don't think the player development(sophomore year) along with the game play Amy does is going to work for a power 5 school in keeping and recruiting top recruits year after year. Had that class stayed plus this years class along with next years class stayed together I think it would of been a very solid team IMHO!

[KarlHessEatMy.... 368]

Also I freaking love Amy. I love my seats right next to the bench. I love the fire and passion she gets going during a game. Its a blast to see the emotion and frustration in her face throughout a game. 

[Norm Peterson 9,682]

I'm regrettably not as up on this team as I wish I was. I've seen parts of the Illinois, Creighton and Indiana games. I was surprised we got throttled so badly by Indiana. I wish I had a better feel for this team. That's one of the reasons I'm asking the question in this poll. This is probably my worst year for following this team in a few decades. I blame Covid. I just don't feel like I could rattle off players and who's the best and who isn't like I'd have been able to do in years past.

 

Anyway, I appreciate the people who have made an honest effort to provide their opinions to my poll.

 

Thanks

[HB 3,826]

10 minutes ago, KarlHessEatMy.... said:

 

I honestly think she did really well with recruiting the year of Haiby. That class had the potential in my eyes to be a top 15 team after watching them their freshman year. But again I don't think the player development(sophomore year) along with the game play Amy does is going to work for a power 5 school in keeping and recruiting top recruits year after year. Had that class stayed plus this years class along with next years class stayed together I think it would of been a very solid team IMHO!

 

Even if you're right about that first class, we didn't put much on top of it.   And I'm less a fan of the fall 19/spring '20 class than many on here.  Average at best, and a couple of absolute head scratchers.  And didn't address an obvious position of need. 

[redsteve 1,832]

If one was to narrow it down to one thing...it's the staff.  Everything else revolves around it. They're responsible and paid to create the team. So whatever team shows up to play is the result of the staffs recruiting, coaching, teaching, ...everything on the list.

[longtimefan 64]

If I could I would vote for all of the above.

[12dozen 672]

1 hour ago, HB said:

 

Just curious, what do you think Moos could have done, or could be doing, other than making a change at head coach?   

Basically, I made the comment because the buck stops at his desk.  But, more in depth, has he provided direction, expectations, and support for the WBB program to succeed? He is the person with supposed extensive Power 5 level expertise on running an athletic department.  The WBB staff does not have that experience.

 

It sounds like Amy and staff have done some different things this past off season, including seeking out suggestions from John Cook.  Could Moos have used other resources, within the athletic department, to give her a boost?  Was she given all the resources needed for recruiting?  If yes, why are we playing with 7 active players? Why are we recruiting kids with injuries?  Why have we not had a roster with 15 scholarship kids, even once in 5 years?  Questionable roster management has been apparent for awhile.

 

I have no answers. Just high hopes for a successful WBB program.

[Cazzie22 1,441]

I want to give Coach Williams a chance to incorporate the incoming class before I give a final judgement.  I did select recruiting due to the fact we are outmanned and lack quickness overall.  I am concerned about player development.  Kate is not significantly better than as a freshman.  She is limited in the post but I do like her passing skills.  Another example, Whitish peaked as a Sophomore and didn’t seem to get better.  

 

Sam and Izzy can get their own shots.  No one else can and the offense doesn’t seem to provide open looks.  In my view, we are far behind the top teams in this conference.  That being said, I am a supporter but expect better than what is being produced.

[12dozen 672]

31 minutes ago, Cazzie22 said:

I want to give Coach Williams a chance to incorporate the incoming class before I give a final judgement.  I did select recruiting due to the fact we are outmanned and lack quickness overall.  I am concerned about player development.  Kate is not significantly better than as a freshman.  She is limited in the post but I do like her passing skills.  Another example, Whitish peaked as a Sophomore and didn’t seem to get better.  

 

Sam and Izzy can get their own shots.  No one else can and the offense doesn’t seem to provide open looks.  In my view, we are far behind the top teams in this conference.  That being said, I am a supporter but expect better than what is being produced.

Maddie Simon is another player that peaked early.  As HB pointed out, point guard has been an issue for a long time.  Thank goodness for Haiby.

[HB 3,826]

14 hours ago, 12dozen said:

Basically, I made the comment because the buck stops at his desk.  But, more in depth, has he provided direction, expectations, and support for the WBB program to succeed? He is the person with supposed extensive Power 5 level expertise on running an athletic department.  The WBB staff does not have that experience.

 

It sounds like Amy and staff have done some different things this past off season, including seeking out suggestions from John Cook.  Could Moos have used other resources, within the athletic department, to give her a boost?  Was she given all the resources needed for recruiting?  If yes, why are we playing with 7 active players? Why are we recruiting kids with injuries?  Why have we not had a roster with 15 scholarship kids, even once in 5 years?  Questionable roster management has been apparent for awhile.

 

I have no answers. Just high hopes for a successful WBB program.

There is zero question that this staff had every resource it has needed to recruit.  The athletic director has nothing to do with having 7 active players.   This is on staff.  It wasn’t ready for this level.  Can they grow into it?  Would love to see it because they’re great people.  But frankly from where our program was and where it is now, this has been a disaster.  

Edited December 23, 2020 by HB

[swmckewon 383]

Myriad. But at top is guard recruiting/acquisition.

 

A team with LB and TK is pretty good; about as good as last year. 

 

The 14-16 year IMO was a tactical error in scheduling. That was a 17, 18 win team minus five true road games - all Ls - in non con play.

 

[caveman 154]

8 hours ago, swmckewon said:

Myriad. But at top is guard recruiting/acquisition.

 

A team with LB and TK is pretty good; about as good as last year. 

 

The 14-16 year IMO was a tactical error in scheduling. That was a 17, 18 win team minus five true road games - all Ls - in non con play.