uneblinstu's postgame chatter: vol 13; ed 6 - @ Creighton

[Fullbacksympathy]

5 hours ago, millerhusker said:

Ehh, not sure I’d say our wings are better than theirs. These are just my opinions, but.... Mahoney would be the best player on our team. Ballock would start for most teams in the country. And Jefferson is just solid on both ends. I like our guys, but we’re likely on our way to a well below .500 year and Creighton is still a top 15 team.

If you give us shooters at the 4 and 5 who can stretch the court, I’ll take our wings all day.  We may be a very different team soon and our wings’ ability to get to the rim might start mattering a lot more.  Mahoney didn’t impress me.  Ballock can shoot but can’t do anything else.  I liked Jefferson.  The PG was a great player.  He was easily the difference in the game, talent wise.  

[Jacob Padilla]

1 hour ago, LK1 said:

If you give us shooters at the 4 and 5 who can stretch the court, I’ll take our wings all day.  We may be a very different team soon and our wings’ ability to get to the rim might start mattering a lot more.  Mahoney didn’t impress me.  Ballock can shoot but can’t do anything else.  I liked Jefferson.  The PG was a great player.  He was easily the difference in the game, talent wise.  

 

Mahoney won Big East Sixth man of the Year last season and is averaging 16.2 PPG as a starter this year while shooting 42.1% from 3 with 12 assists and 4 turnovers in 5 games. Physical defender.

 

In addition to being one of the best 3-point shooters in the country, Ballock is also a good passer and an elite decision-maker (114 assists to 32 turnovers as a junior and senior). He's a super-charged version of what Nebraska needs Thorir to be.

 

Jefferson is averaging 11.8 points on 62.2% shooting including 43.8% from 3, 4.5 rebounds and 2.5 assists. Athletic, aggressive defender.

 

Antwann Jones is chipping in 7.8 points, 4.0 rebounds and 2.3 assists off the bench. 

 

Who are you considering the wings for Nebraska? If Banton is the point, does that make McGowens a wing in this discussion? If so, we're looking at Allen (18.7 PPG on 43.8% FG and 31.4% 3FG, 5.8 RPG), Thorbjarnarson (3.5 PPG on 27.6% FG, 4.5 RPG), McGowens (11.2 PPG on 41.5% FG and 40% 3FG, 4.5 RPG) and Stevenson (6.8 PPG and 3.3 RPG) as the wings? 

 

Nebraska actually plays more five-out right now than Creighton does with Mayen at the 5; Bishop and Kalkbrenner aren't really shooting threats at this point. And those wings being able to shoot would certainly help create driving lanes for the other wings too, no? Isn't shooting ability part of being good at basketball?

 

Call me a Creighton homer all you want, and I've been a Teddy believer for a long time, but I don't really see an argument for Nebraska's wings being better. That being said, Creighton's wings are all seniors and have been in that system for at least 3 years apiece; they should be further along than Nebraska's wings right now. 

 

Creighton is good because it has serious offensive threats at all five positions, and they play so well together. Zegarowski is definitely their best player, but you caught his best game of the season so far; he's been mostly off as he's working back from a knee surgery he had back in March. Right now, they're mostly rolling with balance over individual stardom; Zegarowski, Ballock, Mahoney, Bishop and Kalkbrenner have all led them in scoring already.

[jayschool]

8 hours ago, Jacob Padilla said:

 

Mahoney won Big East Sixth man of the Year last season and is averaging 16.2 PPG as a starter this year while shooting 42.1% from 3 with 12 assists and 4 turnovers in 5 games. Physical defender.

 

In addition to being one of the best 3-point shooters in the country, Ballock is also a good passer and an elite decision-maker (114 assists to 32 turnovers as a junior and senior). He's a super-charged version of what Nebraska needs Thorir to be.

 

Jefferson is averaging 11.8 points on 62.2% shooting including 43.8% from 3, 4.5 rebounds and 2.5 assists. Athletic, aggressive defender.

 

Antwann Jones is chipping in 7.8 points, 4.0 rebounds and 2.3 assists off the bench. 

 

Who are you considering the wings for Nebraska? If Banton is the point, does that make McGowens a wing in this discussion? If so, we're looking at Allen (18.7 PPG on 43.8% FG and 31.4% 3FG, 5.8 RPG), Thorbjarnarson (3.5 PPG on 27.6% FG, 4.5 RPG), McGowens (11.2 PPG on 41.5% FG and 40% 3FG, 4.5 RPG) and Stevenson (6.8 PPG and 3.3 RPG) as the wings? 

 

Nebraska actually plays more five-out right now than Creighton does with Mayen at the 5; Bishop and Kalkbrenner aren't really shooting threats at this point. And those wings being able to shoot would certainly help create driving lanes for the other wings too, no? Isn't shooting ability part of being good at basketball?

 

Call me a Creighton homer all you want, and I've been a Teddy believer for a long time, but I don't really see an argument for Nebraska's wings being better. That being said, Creighton's wings are all seniors and have been in that system for at least 3 years apiece; they should be further along than Nebraska's wings right now. 

 

Creighton is good because it has serious offensive threats at all five positions, and they play so well together. Zegarowski is definitely their best player, but you caught his best game of the season so far; he's been mostly off as he's working back from a knee surgery he had back in March. Right now, they're mostly rolling with balance over individual stardom; Zegarowski, Ballock, Mahoney, Bishop and Kalkbrenner have all led them in scoring already.

Jacob, I appreciate what you're able to provide us, both here and on Hail Varsity. One of the first lessons in my sports writing class has to do with putting aside fandom and being an objective reporter. You do that, and you do it very well. My students are all massive Hawkeye homers, but I make sure they know they'll likely be in the same position you are, and I'll make sure they know how you and others do it without bias. Congratulations.

Edited December 16, 2020 by jayschool

[49r]

Nebraska fans also know what it's like to lose 2 of their last 3 games.

[millerhusker]

20 minutes ago, jayschool said:

Jacob, I appreciate what you're able to provide us, both here and on Hail Varsity. One of the first lessons in my sports writing class has to do with putting aside fandom and being an objective reporter. You do that, and you do it very well. My students are all massive Hawkeye homers, but I make sure they know they'll likely be in the same position you are, and I'll make sure they know how you and other do it with bias. Congratulations.

Padilla and Nyatawa are the two best basketball writers in Nebraska. Both are objective and knowledgeable. Heady could write, but you could tell he lacks basketball IQ. 

[Norm Peterson]

15 minutes ago, millerhusker said:

Padilla and Nyatawa are the two best basketball writers in Nebraska. Both are objective and knowledgeable. Heady could write, but you could tell he lacks basketball IQ. 

 

Present company excluded, of course. 

[jimmykc]

I actually appreciated Ballock more when I found out he was from Eudora, a town about the size of Seward between Lawrence and Olathe. Shows that a small town guy who can shoot and is smart can contribute in a big way to a Div. 1 team if utilized properly. 

[bleujay]

1 hour ago, jimmykc said:

I actually appreciated Ballock more when I found out he was from Eudora, a town about the size of Seward between Lawrence and Olathe. Shows that a small town guy who can shoot and is smart can contribute in a big way to a Div. 1 team if utilized properly. 

I still think Ballock would have gone to KU had he not injured his shoulder and missed his entire junior year.

[Fullbacksympathy]

13 hours ago, Jacob Padilla said:

 

Mahoney won Big East Sixth man of the Year last season and is averaging 16.2 PPG as a starter this year while shooting 42.1% from 3 with 12 assists and 4 turnovers in 5 games. Physical defender.

 

In addition to being one of the best 3-point shooters in the country, Ballock is also a good passer and an elite decision-maker (114 assists to 32 turnovers as a junior and senior). He's a super-charged version of what Nebraska needs Thorir to be.

 

Jefferson is averaging 11.8 points on 62.2% shooting including 43.8% from 3, 4.5 rebounds and 2.5 assists. Athletic, aggressive defender.

 

Antwann Jones is chipping in 7.8 points, 4.0 rebounds and 2.3 assists off the bench. 

 

Who are you considering the wings for Nebraska? If Banton is the point, does that make McGowens a wing in this discussion? If so, we're looking at Allen (18.7 PPG on 43.8% FG and 31.4% 3FG, 5.8 RPG), Thorbjarnarson (3.5 PPG on 27.6% FG, 4.5 RPG), McGowens (11.2 PPG on 41.5% FG and 40% 3FG, 4.5 RPG) and Stevenson (6.8 PPG and 3.3 RPG) as the wings? 

 

Nebraska actually plays more five-out right now than Creighton does with Mayen at the 5; Bishop and Kalkbrenner aren't really shooting threats at this point. And those wings being able to shoot would certainly help create driving lanes for the other wings too, no? Isn't shooting ability part of being good at basketball?

 

Call me a Creighton homer all you want, and I've been a Teddy believer for a long time, but I don't really see an argument for Nebraska's wings being better. That being said, Creighton's wings are all seniors and have been in that system for at least 3 years apiece; they should be further along than Nebraska's wings right now. 

 

Creighton is good because it has serious offensive threats at all five positions, and they play so well together. Zegarowski is definitely their best player, but you caught his best game of the season so far; he's been mostly off as he's working back from a knee surgery he had back in March. Right now, they're mostly rolling with balance over individual stardom; Zegarowski, Ballock, Mahoney, Bishop and Kalkbrenner have all led them in scoring already.

Which question should I answer?  I guess I’ll start with Banton.  He is not a true PG because he doesn’t defend PG, so I’d call him a wing.  We don’t really have a true PG, which is a Hoiberg trait on occasion.  I would take Banton, Teddy, and McGowans over Creighton’s wings, yes.  They’ve played 6 games together without a full team.  And I know we play more 5 out than CU.  That’s my entire point—we can’t utilize slashers if our bigs can’t shoot in a 5 out.  I think our wings can get to the rim in iso better than CU’s.  CU definitely has better shooters.    
 

I don’t think you’re a homer at all.  You have good commentary.  I just don’t think Creighton is all world outside of their elite PG.  They rely on a proven offensive system and kudos to the system and good players.  Sorry?  
 

Also, Jefferson is a forward, if we’re getting technical.  

Edited December 16, 2020 by LK1

[Jacob Padilla]

1 hour ago, LK1 said:

Which question should I answer?  I guess I’ll start with Banton.  He is not a true PG because he doesn’t defend PG, so I’d call him a wing.  We don’t really have a true PG, which is a Hoiberg trait on occasion.  I would take Banton, Teddy, and McGowans over Creighton’s wings, yes.  They’ve played 6 games together without a full team.  And I know we play more 5 out than CU.  That’s my entire point—we can’t utilize slashers if our bigs can’t shoot in a 5 out.  I think our wings can get to the rim in iso better than CU’s.  CU definitely has better shooters.    
 

I don’t think you’re a homer at all.  You have good commentary.  I just don’t think Creighton is all world outside of their elite PG (the only possible NBA player on the roster) and they proved it against Marquette.  Sorry?  
 

 

I mean, everyone on the team calls Banton their point guard, he plays point guard on offense and he's defended basically every position on the court. Zegarowski plays off the ball too when Mitchell is in the game with him, so would that qualify him to be considered a wing? We're just arguing semantics here, I suppose. FWIW, Hoiberg actually has had a pretty clear traditional-esque point guard every season of his career except for year two with Royce White. 

 

I'll hear the argument for those guys having more potentialconsidering the experience gap, but they still have a ways to go to polish their games. Ballock, Jefferson and Mahoney have all pretty clearly been better than McGowens throughout his career to this point; he's just not been a very efficient offensive player and while he's capable defensively, I don't think he's been a game-changer on that end. 

 

Teddy's capable of putting the team on his back, but there's a lot of negative that comes with what he's giving you right now as well, just like with McGowens. Teddy and McGowens have the edge in drawing fouls, but Mahoney and Jefferson are just much more efficient (better shooters, better passers, typically more sound on defense) and the total production is about the same. Ballock vs. Thorbjarnarson leans heavily in Creighton's favor.

 

FWIW, Creighton's three starting wings combined for 64 points on 20-35 FG against Marquette; the overall team defense just wasn't good enough to overcome an outlier-good shooting performance by Marquette. Creighton's roster certainly has its flaws, and I never said any of their wings were All-Americans, but I also don't think Nebraska's wings are playing at an incredibly high level and are just being held down by the poor post play either. 

[Jacob Padilla]

11 hours ago, millerhusker said:

Padilla and Nyatawa are the two best basketball writers in Nebraska. Both are objective and knowledgeable. Heady could write, but you could tell he lacks basketball IQ. 

That is really good company and I appreciate the compliment. 

[Fullbacksympathy]

2 hours ago, Jacob Padilla said:

I mean, everyone on the team calls Banton their point guard, he plays point guard on offense and he's defended basically every position on the court. Zegarowski plays off the ball too when Mitchell is in the game with him, so would that qualify him to be considered a wing? We're just arguing semantics here, I suppose. FWIW, Hoiberg actually has had a pretty clear traditional-esque point guard every season of his career except for year two with Royce White. 

 

I'll hear the argument for those guys having more potentialconsidering the experience gap, but they still have a ways to go to polish their games. Ballock, Jefferson and Mahoney have all pretty clearly been better than McGowens throughout his career to this point; he's just not been a very efficient offensive player and while he's capable defensively, I don't think he's been a game-changer on that end. 

 

Teddy's capable of putting the team on his back, but there's a lot of negative that comes with what he's giving you right now as well, just like with McGowens. Teddy and McGowens have the edge in drawing fouls, but Mahoney and Jefferson are just much more efficient (better shooters, better passers, typically more sound on defense) and the total production is about the same. Ballock vs. Thorbjarnarson leans heavily in Creighton's favor.

 

FWIW, Creighton's three starting wings combined for 64 points on 20-35 FG against Marquette; the overall team defense just wasn't good enough to overcome an outlier-good shooting performance by Marquette. Creighton's roster certainly has its flaws, and I never said any of their wings were All-Americans, but I also don't think Nebraska's wings are playing at an incredibly high level and are just being held down by the poor post play either. 

All good points.  I edited my Marquette comment before you had a chance to respond, so touche there as well.  The CU guards put up gaudy numbers in that one.  
 

I’m pretty patient with the development this season at NU.  Really I’m waiting until Walker is in the lineup to make any further judgments on scheme, but I don’t know how a 5 out can function without a couple serviceable three point threats or one big who can score with his back to the basket In isolation.  These guards are built for slashing and transition.  If we can’t spread in the half court and we have to help in the post on defense, it’s going to continue to look stunted and unnatural on both ends.  
 

I would still wager that by this time next season (Fred’s first complete roster) what I said is true, but I obviously respect your viewpoint as it’s certainly a more popular one.  

Edited December 17, 2020 by LK1

[Jacob Padilla]

1 hour ago, LK1 said:

All good points.  I edited my Marquette comment before you had a chance to respond, so touche there as well.  The CU guards put up gaudy numbers in that one.  
 

I’m pretty patient with the development this season at NU.  Really I’m waiting until Walker is in the lineup to make any further judgments on scheme, but I don’t know how a 5 out can function without a couple serviceable three point threats or one big who can score with his back to the basket In isolation.  These guards are built for slashing and transition.  If we can’t spread in the half court and we have to help in the post on defense, it’s going to continue to look stunted and unnatural on both ends.  
 

I would still wager that by this time next season (Fred’s first complete roster) what I said is true, but I obviously respect your viewpoint as it’s certainly a more popular one.  

 

At this point, one of the biggest problem is Thorir isn't hitting shots and teams are latched onto Lat. Trey's shooting a good percentage but it's low-volume, and he 5-5 in two games and 3-15 in the other four. I don't really think teams are worried about him as a shooter at this point. Teddy and Dalano are your two best players and neither one is giving you spacing, and when you play them together along with Trey, there's just not going to be a ton of spacing.

 

I'll be curious to see if they maybe try to run a bit more pick-and-roll once Walker is eligible. If he can be more reliable as a roll man than Yvan has been and free up Lat to play the four, then that could generate some good offense.

 

As for Jefferson (missed that comment before), a small forward = wing, no? He's 6'5", he handles the ball on the perimeter and he shoots the 3. He's just athletic enough to hold his own at the 4 with Creighton playing small-ball, so they list him as a forward. He's not any different than Shamiel who Nebraska lists as a guard. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Jacob Padilla

[Fullbacksympathy]

3 hours ago, Jacob Padilla said:

 

At this point, one of the biggest problem is Thorir isn't hitting shots and teams are latched onto Lat. Trey's shooting a good percentage but it's low-volume, and he 5-5 in two games and 3-15 in the other four. I don't really think teams are worried about him as a shooter at this point. Teddy and Dalano are your two best players and neither one is giving you spacing, and when you play them together along with Trey, there's just not going to be a ton of spacing.

 

I'll be curious to see if they maybe try to run a bit more pick-and-roll once Walker is eligible. If he can be more reliable as a roll man than Yvan has been and free up Lat to play the four, then that could generate some good offense.

 

As for Jefferson (missed that comment before), a small forward = wing, no? He's 6'5", he handles the ball on the perimeter and he shoots the 3. He's just athletic enough to hold his own at the 4 with Creighton playing small-ball, so they list him as a forward. He's not any different than Shamiel who Nebraska lists as a guard. 

True.  I’d call Shamiel a forward primarily.  The plays I remember Jefferson making were down low (he’s explosive) but I agree that a 3-4 swing player being a guard or forward is semantics with many teams.  

[Norm Peterson]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:08 AM, jayschool said:

Jacob, I appreciate what you're able to provide us, both here and on Hail Varsity. One of the first lessons in my sports writing class has to do with putting aside fandom and being an objective reporter. You do that, and you do it very well. My students are all massive Hawkeye homers, but I make sure they know they'll likely be in the same position you are, and I'll make sure they know how you and others do it without bias. Congratulations.

 

Bias can be found not simply in what one writes but also in what one chooses to write about.

[Jacob Padilla]

10 hours ago, LK1 said:

True.  I’d call Shamiel a forward primarily.  The plays I remember Jefferson making were down low (he’s explosive) but I agree that a 3-4 swing player being a guard or forward is semantics with many teams.  

See, I think of the "wing" terminology pretty much refers to everyone who isn't a primary ball-handler or a post player. More specifically, I see 3s/perimeter 4s/non-handling 2s (as in more spot-up-type guys than combo-guards) as wings. I think size fits into it a bit as well; 6'5" to 6'8" is probably typical "wing" height in my mind. 

 

Guards, forwards, centers is a the traditional breakdown. Point guards, wings and bigs I think is a bit more descriptive and fits the current game a little better, but even that is too generic. 

[Fullbacksympathy]

7 minutes ago, Jacob Padilla said:

See, I think of the "wing" terminology pretty much refers to everyone who isn't a primary ball-handler or a post player. More specifically, I see 3s/perimeter 4s/non-handling 2s (as in more spot-up-type guys than combo-guards) as wings. I think size fits into it a bit as well; 6'5" to 6'8" is probably typical "wing" height in my mind. 

 

Guards, forwards, centers is a the traditional breakdown. Point guards, wings and bigs I think is a bit more descriptive and fits the current game a little better, but even that is too generic. 

 

It's also systemic--like an H back versus a fullback or a TE.  A Jefferson esque player is basketball's H Back.  Stretch 4 might be a good term, but I think of those guys as tall and three point specialists--not slashers like PFs can often be.  A stretch 4 is more of a wing in terms of shooting skill, I suppose, and that might mean what we're seeing more of now is 4 guards and a center.  

 

If you think about Lebron vs. Bird, there's no way both guys play the same position.  Or Dirk and Duncan.  

 

You are probably onto something that a new glossary needs to be developed for basketball positions.  

 

 

[Jacob Padilla]

19 minutes ago, LK1 said:

 

It's also systemic--like an H back versus a fullback or a TE.  A Jefferson esque player is basketball's H Back.  Stretch 4 might be a good term, but I think of those guys as tall and three point specialists--not slashers like PFs can often be.  A stretch 4 is more of a wing in terms of shooting skill, I suppose, and that might mean what we're seeing more of now is 4 guards and a center.  

 

If you think about Lebron vs. Bird, there's no way both guys play the same position.  Or Dirk and Duncan.  

 

You are probably onto something that a new glossary needs to be developed for basketball positions.  

 

 

I know several attempts to revolutionize the way we talk about players by role more so than traditional position have been made in writing, but "guards, forwards and centers" is so ingrained in our basketball lexicon and is more straight-forward than "primary initiator," "rim-runner" or other more descriptive terms that it will be difficult to change the overall discourse. 

[Norm Peterson]

2 hours ago, Jacob Padilla said:

See, I think of the "wing" terminology pretty much refers to everyone who isn't a primary ball-handler or a post player. More specifically, I see 3s/perimeter 4s/non-handling 2s (as in more spot-up-type guys than combo-guards) as wings. I think size fits into it a bit as well; 6'5" to 6'8" is probably typical "wing" height in my mind. 

 

Guards, forwards, centers is a the traditional breakdown. Point guards, wings and bigs I think is a bit more descriptive and fits the current game a little better, but even that is too generic. 

 

So, when Coach Hoiberg says that Lat is playing out of position, does that mean he's really a wing who has been playing as a big? Or is there maybe just more than one kind of big?

[Jacob Padilla]

1 hour ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

So, when Coach Hoiberg says that Lat is playing out of position, does that mean he's really a wing who has been playing as a big? Or is there maybe just more than one kind of big?

Lat is definitely more of a wing than a post, though he might just be a stretch-four and not much more versatile than that based on what he's shown so far. The ball-handling and ability to attack closeouts and shot diversity has probably been a little disappointing based on what we heard about him, and I'm not sold on his mobility on the perimeter defensively against guards and wings. 

 

I think the "out of position" thing has more to do with him defensively and the toll that takes on him; theoretically, Lat at the five should give him an advantage on offense if the other team is guarding him with a center because it should make it easier for him to get open since big guys often aren't as comfortable on the perimeter. They don't use Lat like a center on offense even when he's at the five.