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Nebraska (15-13) vs. Michigan (24-4) Game Thread


Bugeaters1

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Final Stats: (Game Highlight; Roby outjumping Teske for the initial Tip!)

(The bright spot was the play of the Husker bench, which produced 21 points, two shy of matching Nebraska’s largest bench production in Big Ten play.)

 

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I have to admit, after reading some posts calling Roby "gutless" and speculating that Palmer didn't want to take the court is completely unwarranted and unfair.

 

Most importantly, it is looking past the problem.  We have seen a .500 basketball team over the past 7 years, and we're still blaming players?  There is only one common denominator over the past 7 years, and he's making 2.5 million dollars to not perform.

 

There's nothing wrong with hiring a mid-major guy, if you are good enough to identify the right one.  Bill Self was a mid-major coach, Dana was a mid-major coach, Tubby Smith was a mid-major coach.  The problem comes when you hitch your wagon to a .500 coach at Colorado State and expect great things here.  Tim Miles can't win consistently, he's just not that good.  I knew it several years ago, and it will prove itself out very soon.

 

The circus show of the tweets, the podcast comments, the comedy routine, the quality players transferring out, and now these ridiculous benchings is just icing on the cake.  What was that supposed to prove?  You thought that you had the team prepared to win outside of Palmer and Roby just not playing hard?  Please, this is just not acceptable and none of you should place your blame on players.  This is the product of a poor coach and program, that's where your criticism should be.

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3 minutes ago, JeffsBBall said:

Most importantly, it is looking past the problem.  We have seen a .500 basketball team over the past 7 years, and we're still blaming players?  There is only one common denominator over the past 7 years, and he's making 2.5 million dollars to not perform.

 

We've been playing 0.500 basketball for far more than 7 years.

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11 minutes ago, JeffsBBall said:

I have to admit, after reading some posts calling Roby "gutless" and speculating that Palmer didn't want to take the court is completely unwarranted and unfair.

 

Most importantly, it is looking past the problem.  We have seen a .500 basketball team over the past 7 years, and we're still blaming players?  There is only one common denominator over the past 7 years, and he's making 2.5 million dollars to not perform.

 

There's nothing wrong with hiring a mid-major guy, if you are good enough to identify the right one.  Bill Self was a mid-major coach, Dana was a mid-major coach, Tubby Smith was a mid-major coach.  The problem comes when you hitch your wagon to a .500 coach at Colorado State and expect great things here.  Tim Miles can't win consistently, he's just not that good.  I knew it several years ago, and it will prove itself out very soon.

 

The circus show of the tweets, the podcast comments, the comedy routine, the quality players transferring out, and now these ridiculous benchings is just icing on the cake.  What was that supposed to prove?  You thought that you had the team prepared to win outside of Palmer and Roby just not playing hard?  Please, this is just not acceptable and none of you should place your blame on players.  This is the product of a poor coach and program, that's where your criticism should be.

 

Player AND coach criticism is justified tonight

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22 minutes ago, hhcscott said:

Nebraska basketball isn't as good as we want it to be, and because we have emotionally invested in it for this season, or the last 40 seasons

 

So much this.

 

And as invested and dedicated we are to making this program a success, we're not the #1 vacant job for many coaches, which is why our ADs seem to end up with some riskier hires.

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39 minutes ago, hhcscott said:

At no one in particular and everyone (myself included) Nebraska basketball isn't as good as we want it to be, and because we have emotionally invested in it for this season, or the last 40 seasons, we believe they owe us a return on that investment. These are decent people, trying and not succeeding, not criminals stealing our money or intentionally sabotaging "our" program. It hasn't worked out for any of us. We move on. Older, wiser, but hopefully with some compassion for everyone involved, who tried, but just didn't get there, and a hope that one of these days the effort, skill and opportunities will belong to Nebraska.

 

 

Yep. I'm certainly disappointed in some of the efforts of the players and coaches, but seldom is my criticism of their heart & soul. It's merely critiquing their actions. And, of course, the coaches do that to the players every freakin' day. Dakich tonight on the broadcast seemed to be one who went after Palmer & Roby (to some extent) tonight. I thought some of what he said was on point, but a lot of it is bluster. Dave Flemming telling the world that Glynn Watson Jr is one of the best Huskers ever is basically giving up on researching Nebrasketball, like, at all. My point is that criticism comes from all over. It's life, man. This team hasn't overcome their own gaffes to be able to overcome 1 significant injury. And Nana & Tom both were hurt tonight. Let's critique the strength/conditioning staff for that, while we're at it. No, not really. I forgot what the point was after ranting for awhile. Oh well, movin' on.... NEXT! #GBRAlways

 

 

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1 hour ago, JeffsBBall said:

I have to admit, after reading some posts calling Roby "gutless" and speculating that Palmer didn't want to take the court is completely unwarranted and unfair.

 

I should probably write a FAQ about this.

The game threads are heated win, lose or draw.  

If you have something to say about something in a game thread, say it in there.

 

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Well, I did manage to get through this thread which was about as pleasurable as having a breakfast of cold, leftover poutine. We have three more games to get through before my Moonlight  Graham avatar can come out of the dugout. I will continue to hope for a pleasant surprise yet this season but the emphasis is decidedly on the "surprise" part. 

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12 hours ago, JeffsBBall said:

I have to admit, after reading some posts calling Roby "gutless" and speculating that Palmer didn't want to take the court is completely unwarranted and unfair.

 

Most importantly, it is looking past the problem.  We have seen a .500 basketball team over the past 7 years, and we're still blaming players?  There is only one common denominator over the past 7 years, and he's making 2.5 million dollars to not perform.

 

There's nothing wrong with hiring a mid-major guy, if you are good enough to identify the right one.  Bill Self was a mid-major coach, Dana was a mid-major coach, Tubby Smith was a mid-major coach.  The problem comes when you hitch your wagon to a .500 coach at Colorado State and expect great things here.  Tim Miles can't win consistently, he's just not that good.  I knew it several years ago, and it will prove itself out very soon.

 

The circus show of the tweets, the podcast comments, the comedy routine, the quality players transferring out, and now these ridiculous benchings is just icing on the cake.  What was that supposed to prove?  You thought that you had the team prepared to win outside of Palmer and Roby just not playing hard?  Please, this is just not acceptable and none of you should place your blame on players.  This is the product of a poor coach and program, that's where your criticism should be.

In far too many games this year, the team looks unprepared from the opening tip.   I find myself wondering "did we practice and gameplan for this team?  Did we watch any film?"  It's been bad.  However, the "effort" given by some members of the team has been ridiculous.  Bad starts at PSU and last night doomed the team.   But it's pretty bad when getting down early by 9 points at PSU and 8 points last night means you have NO CHANCE of winning.  When it was 13-4 at PSU and 15-7 last night, we all knew the game was over.  You could just see the effort was not there in either game.  Was the gameplan bad?  Obviously.  But the effort can be controlled.  And the effort was putrid.  

 

What was benching Palmer, Roby and Allen supposed to do?  Maybe light a fire under them.  Dakich was spot on with many of his comments.  No matter what is happening, you can still play hard and act like you care.  Those 3 acted like they had no desire whatsoever to be in the game in the 1st half.  And yes, a lot of that is Miles fault.   If he had benched them a few games ago, it may have helped.  It's too late now.  But at least he finally did it.   Nana, Amir and Thor were playing with their hair on fire.  Borchart was having some trouble with the MU bigs, but he was giving effort.  And I've been critical of Glynn over the last few weeks with some of his body language.  But in the last few games, the kid has been trying.   Palmer, Roby and Allen were just brutal last night in that 1st half.  Lollygagging.  I mean honestly, how in the world do you NOT know that you are at the end of the half.  Watson drives in, gets his shot blocked, Roby gets it, then dances around in the corner like he thinks he has a full 30 second shot clock.  Ridiculous. 

 

When the 3 starters came back in, it appeared Roby at least somewhat "got it".  He was hustling a lot more.  Allen played harder.  Palmer, not so much.  But at least he got a little more aggressive at times.  

 

Last nights' debacle was a combination of both coaching and players.  Like most things these days, it appears that every opinion is completely on one side or the other.  It's all coaching.  No, it's all players.  It's a lot of both.  It does appear as if a lot of players have quit on Miles.  And that's on Tim, for the most part.  However, these kids should have more pride in themselves.  I understand if they've lost faith in the coach.  They can still play hard for themselves.  

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I've been trying to think of a way to say this without getting lit up here, and hopefully I can come close with this. A few premises to start:

a. Last night was a debacle of epic proportions.

b. No one factor is 100% to blame -- there's plenty that goes into it.

c. Miles, no matter what you think about what happens on the court, is a genuinely good person.

Those shouldn't be super groundbreaking, and I hope could be accepted by everyone here. So when I propose the following, please remember that I don't put 100% of the blame of last night on it -- it's simply a factor, albeit one to think about as we move forward.

 

As Dan Dakich was going on about how the players on the bench didn't deserve to be in the game (something I happen to agree with), I kept thinking back to an interview that Nick Bahe did with Jake Muhleisen last year. (In fact this morning I went and found it to make sure I was remembering it correctly -- it's linked here, if you want to hear it for yourself.) In it, they discuss one of the potential side effects of a cycle of one-year contracts and "ultimatum" years -- the way it changes how a coach CAN coach. When it's a "win now or you're fired" situation, for better or for worse, it changes the way you handle your locker room as well as the way the locker room responds to you. They gave the hypothetical that if James Palmer was "slacking off", Miles doesn't have the ability to exert discipline when it comes to playing time, because he's forced to play the best players at all times to give him the best chance of winning so as not to be fired. (And let's remember that while he may have a buyout parachute, he is well aware that his staff does not, and as a good person, that would weigh heavily on someone and potentially affect how they operate -- if not for themselves, for the benefit of the staff they brought here.)

 

So last night Miles finally exerted some discipline. Several here have posited that it's too little too late, and they wish he would have done something like that sooner. I'd agree -- except that I can understand why that didn't happen. Last night there was finally nothing left to lose -- that game was pretty well decided by halftime, at least with the trajectory it was on with that set of players, and without a win, aside from winning the Big Ten Tournament the NCAA is pretty well out of reach. Prior to that, it's a little more of a crap shoot -- maybe it works and you save the culture and the locker room and light a fire under the guys. Or maybe it doesn't, and you lose. (Miles has alluded to this being an issue in other areas as well, most notably with his regret over allowing Jordy back -- something he admitted in that Goodman podcast he wouldn't have done normally but went against his own instinct due to the pressure both to win now, and to not lose more players who you might need to win.) It's a more prominent risk, where last night the risk was pretty well mitigated.

 

Again -- this is not to say that a multi-year extension means we don't lose last night. But it's also maybe somewhat disingenuous, or at least unrealistic, to remain mired in the same win-this-year-or-you're-fired pressure cycle (not just once, but three years straight), and expect that to NOT change the way Miles is able to coach. If you think the one-year extension was the right call, you can't be surprised if the locker room gets away from Miles, or hold him 100% accountable to that. Without the ability to enforce any kind of discipline -- because discipline is a risk that may cost you wins, and you need wins to keep your job both for yourself and your staff -- it's tough to keep a group of 18-22 year old dudes locked in and functioning at the required level. We have the benefit of hindsight, so we know we lost those games anyway; in the moment (or the days leading up to it), is it such an easy call? If you know that James Palmer or Isaiah Roby or Thomas Allen or Glynn Watson can give you 15 points in a hurry if they turn it on, and you need those points, it changes how you play them even if they're off -- because they've shown they CAN turn it on at any given time, and so benching them becomes a lot harder to do. Maybe the culture is broken, and of course to some extent that falls on the coaches -- but it's also yet another example of how this administration set up another hurdle for the team rather than clearing it. 

 

Maybe I'm putting too much thought into this -- it IS just a game -- but I also tend to be the type to try to pull back from a situation that isn't going well, and try to analyze more about what went wrong in an effort to fix it for next time. In this instance, while there's certainly more that can be expected of the players and coaches, I do think it's reasonable to peel back another layer and ask what could make it less of an issue next time around -- and that's one area I've seen maybe alluded to slightly but not explicitly stated (where everything else has been discussed extensively), so that's where I'm chiming in and hoping to not get destroyed here for saying so.

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9 minutes ago, ladyhusker said:

I've been trying to think of a way to say this without getting lit up here, and hopefully I can come close with this. A few premises to start:

a. Last night was a debacle of epic proportions.

b. No one factor is 100% to blame -- there's plenty that goes into it.

c. Miles, no matter what you think about what happens on the court, is a genuinely good person.

Those shouldn't be super groundbreaking, and I hope could be accepted by everyone here. So when I propose the following, please remember that I don't put 100% of the blame of last night on it -- it's simply a factor, albeit one to think about as we move forward.

 

As Dan Dakich was going on about how the players on the bench didn't deserve to be in the game (something I happen to agree with), I kept thinking back to an interview that Nick Bahe did with Jake Muhleisen last year. (In fact this morning I went and found it to make sure I was remembering it correctly -- it's linked here, if you want to hear it for yourself.) In it, they discuss one of the potential side effects of a cycle of one-year contracts and "ultimatum" years -- the way it changes how a coach CAN coach. When it's a "win now or you're fired" situation, for better or for worse, it changes the way you handle your locker room as well as the way the locker room responds to you. They gave the hypothetical that if James Palmer was "slacking off", Miles doesn't have the ability to exert discipline when it comes to playing time, because he's forced to play the best players at all times to give him the best chance of winning so as not to be fired. (And let's remember that while he may have a buyout parachute, he is well aware that his staff does not, and as a good person, that would weigh heavily on someone and potentially affect how they operate -- if not for themselves, for the benefit of the staff they brought here.)

 

So last night Miles finally exerted some discipline. Several here have posited that it's too little too late, and they wish he would have done something like that sooner. I'd agree -- except that I can understand why that didn't happen. Last night there was finally nothing left to lose -- that game was pretty well decided by halftime, at least with the trajectory it was on with that set of players, and without a win, aside from winning the Big Ten Tournament the NCAA is pretty well out of reach. Prior to that, it's a little more of a crap shoot -- maybe it works and you save the culture and the locker room and light a fire under the guys. Or maybe it doesn't, and you lose. (Miles has alluded to this being an issue in other areas as well, most notably with his regret over allowing Jordy back -- something he admitted in that Goodman podcast he wouldn't have done normally but went against his own instinct due to the pressure both to win now, and to not lose more players who you might need to win.) It's a more prominent risk, where last night the risk was pretty well mitigated.

 

Again -- this is not to say that a multi-year extension means we don't lose last night. But it's also maybe somewhat disingenuous, or at least unrealistic, to remain mired in the same win-this-year-or-you're-fired pressure cycle (not just once, but three years straight), and expect that to NOT change the way Miles is able to coach. If you think the one-year extension was the right call, you can't be surprised if the locker room gets away from Miles, or hold him 100% accountable to that. Without the ability to enforce any kind of discipline -- because discipline is a risk that may cost you wins, and you need wins to keep your job both for yourself and your staff -- it's tough to keep a group of 18-22 year old dudes locked in and functioning at the required level. We have the benefit of hindsight, so we know we lost those games anyway; in the moment (or the days leading up to it), is it such an easy call? If you know that James Palmer or Isaiah Roby or Thomas Allen or Glynn Watson can give you 15 points in a hurry if they turn it on, and you need those points, it changes how you play them even if they're off -- because they've shown they CAN turn it on at any given time, and so benching them becomes a lot harder to do. Maybe the culture is broken, and of course to some extent that falls on the coaches -- but it's also yet another example of how this administration set up another hurdle for the team rather than clearing it. 

 

Maybe I'm putting too much thought into this -- it IS just a game -- but I also tend to be the type to try to pull back from a situation that isn't going well, and try to analyze more about what went wrong in an effort to fix it for next time. In this instance, while there's certainly more that can be expected of the players and coaches, I do think it's reasonable to peel back another layer and ask what could make it less of an issue next time around -- and that's one area I've seen maybe alluded to slightly but not explicitly stated (where everything else has been discussed extensively), so that's where I'm chiming in and hoping to not get destroyed here for saying so.

Ladyhusker, that was an AWESOME post!  Thank you for taking the time to write it.  Incredible RATIONAL thought, something that is very hard for most of us to do.  Thank you!

 

Or, we could get the same old "I knew years ago that Miles was not a good coach" stuff that many like to "remind" others about.  Always so easy to KNOW this years ago NOW when things are at their end.  

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Pat Chambers probably could use a few ultimatum years rather than contract extension.

 

It's a very tough balance between providing your coaches with the resources they need to succeed and doing what's best financially for the university. Unfortunately agents don't budge very often on buyout clauses vs. salaries, so ADs are left with either going with the status quo or letting a contract run thin.

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38 minutes ago, ladyhusker said:

I've been trying to think of a way to say this without getting lit up here, and hopefully I can come close with this. A few premises to start:

a. Last night was a debacle of epic proportions.

b. No one factor is 100% to blame -- there's plenty that goes into it.

c. Miles, no matter what you think about what happens on the court, is a genuinely good person.

Those shouldn't be super groundbreaking, and I hope could be accepted by everyone here. So when I propose the following, please remember that I don't put 100% of the blame of last night on it -- it's simply a factor, albeit one to think about as we move forward.

 

As Dan Dakich was going on about how the players on the bench didn't deserve to be in the game (something I happen to agree with), I kept thinking back to an interview that Nick Bahe did with Jake Muhleisen last year. (In fact this morning I went and found it to make sure I was remembering it correctly -- it's linked here, if you want to hear it for yourself.) In it, they discuss one of the potential side effects of a cycle of one-year contracts and "ultimatum" years -- the way it changes how a coach CAN coach. When it's a "win now or you're fired" situation, for better or for worse, it changes the way you handle your locker room as well as the way the locker room responds to you. They gave the hypothetical that if James Palmer was "slacking off", Miles doesn't have the ability to exert discipline when it comes to playing time, because he's forced to play the best players at all times to give him the best chance of winning so as not to be fired. (And let's remember that while he may have a buyout parachute, he is well aware that his staff does not, and as a good person, that would weigh heavily on someone and potentially affect how they operate -- if not for themselves, for the benefit of the staff they brought here.)

 

So last night Miles finally exerted some discipline. Several here have posited that it's too little too late, and they wish he would have done something like that sooner. I'd agree -- except that I can understand why that didn't happen. Last night there was finally nothing left to lose -- that game was pretty well decided by halftime, at least with the trajectory it was on with that set of players, and without a win, aside from winning the Big Ten Tournament the NCAA is pretty well out of reach. Prior to that, it's a little more of a crap shoot -- maybe it works and you save the culture and the locker room and light a fire under the guys. Or maybe it doesn't, and you lose. (Miles has alluded to this being an issue in other areas as well, most notably with his regret over allowing Jordy back -- something he admitted in that Goodman podcast he wouldn't have done normally but went against his own instinct due to the pressure both to win now, and to not lose more players who you might need to win.) It's a more prominent risk, where last night the risk was pretty well mitigated.

 

Again -- this is not to say that a multi-year extension means we don't lose last night. But it's also maybe somewhat disingenuous, or at least unrealistic, to remain mired in the same win-this-year-or-you're-fired pressure cycle (not just once, but three years straight), and expect that to NOT change the way Miles is able to coach. If you think the one-year extension was the right call, you can't be surprised if the locker room gets away from Miles, or hold him 100% accountable to that. Without the ability to enforce any kind of discipline -- because discipline is a risk that may cost you wins, and you need wins to keep your job both for yourself and your staff -- it's tough to keep a group of 18-22 year old dudes locked in and functioning at the required level. We have the benefit of hindsight, so we know we lost those games anyway; in the moment (or the days leading up to it), is it such an easy call? If you know that James Palmer or Isaiah Roby or Thomas Allen or Glynn Watson can give you 15 points in a hurry if they turn it on, and you need those points, it changes how you play them even if they're off -- because they've shown they CAN turn it on at any given time, and so benching them becomes a lot harder to do. Maybe the culture is broken, and of course to some extent that falls on the coaches -- but it's also yet another example of how this administration set up another hurdle for the team rather than clearing it. 

 

Maybe I'm putting too much thought into this -- it IS just a game -- but I also tend to be the type to try to pull back from a situation that isn't going well, and try to analyze more about what went wrong in an effort to fix it for next time. In this instance, while there's certainly more that can be expected of the players and coaches, I do think it's reasonable to peel back another layer and ask what could make it less of an issue next time around -- and that's one area I've seen maybe alluded to slightly but not explicitly stated (where everything else has been discussed extensively), so that's where I'm chiming in and hoping to not get destroyed here for saying so.

 

In my opinion I don’t think it would have mattered if Miles had 5 years or 1 year on his contract. Regardless, just about everyone from the fanbase to the media would be calling this a make or break year. I don’t think the players are dumb enough to believe that with a multi year contract he is somehow safe. 

 

Miles has a multi year contract in 2015 with a team that was expected to make the big dance. How did that work out? I’m sure there are many things that have gone into this disappointing year. But, I think Miles is the same mediocre coach regardless of what his contract states. The athletic department did not take a game on him and it appears for good reason. 

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Good coaches coach their system regardless of the circumstances. That's an issue of discipline for them. And this is especially true when you think you have a winning team. If Miles was changing that much to save his job, then he was already the wrong person for it, because it indicates a complete lack of trust for his bosses judgment (which may, in fact, be warranted,  but still...). 

 

Personally, Miles is a pretty typical quick-minded guy. His high rate of mental churn can cause him a lot of indecision as he winds up frequently second-guessing himself. Those people make excellent teachers and scholars (a personality I think he has), but not always the best trainers (a personality I don't think he has). It's the best explanation I have for his poor clock management under pressure. 

 

What Moos did was pretty harsh, but it's something a good, young coach with confidence and trust in their approach can deal with and manage with their players. But for a guy who is constantly thinking about everything, and for a dude who wears his emotions on his sleeve and isn't particularly good at poker-facing things, it's a curse. 

 

I think Tim's ceiling is a lower pressure program, where his personality traits become more culture positive than negative. He's an ideal mid-major coach, because he's the kind of quick-witted guy that can excel at underdog roles. As a big dog, though, he's not a good fit. 

 

I won't be a bit surprised to see Coach Miles get a nice mid-level D1 gig soon and excel there. 

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