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This Next One is a Must Win


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47 minutes ago, Ron Mexico said:

For a 7 year period:

1. Won a minimum of 9 games at a 70% clip.

2. Played in 3 Conf Champ game

3. Played in a Bowl game for 7 straight years with 4 of those being Jan 1 Bowl games (Jan 1 is a major bowl).

4. Finished in the top 25 in coaches poll in 6 of those years and AP poll 5 of those years.

 

By any standard that is better than good football.

 

Feasted in the bad half of conferences. Never won games that meant anything during those years. We were average at football 

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1 hour ago, Ron Mexico said:

For a 7 year period:

1. Won a minimum of 9 games at a 70% clip.

2. Played in 3 Conf Champ game

3. Played in a Bowl game for 7 straight years with 4 of those being Jan 1 Bowl games (Jan 1 is a major bowl).

4. Finished in the top 25 in coaches poll in 6 of those years and AP poll 5 of those years.

 

By any standard that is better than good football.

 

 

By Kansas, Vanderbilt, and Oregon State standards that is good football.  But Kansas, Vanderbilt, and Oregon State are not good football programs.

 

Losing 30% of your games is failing at a good program.

An 18 year drought with zero BCS or New Year's Six Bowl Game appearances is a failure for a good program. 

Only cracking the final Top 15 once in 18 years isn't just failing for good programs, that's failing for a lot of mediocre ones as well.

 

I'm not even really a Husker football fan, I'm one of those weird freaks that loves Husker basketball and baseball but doesn't care about the football team.  I've got no emotional skin in that program.  But coming from a fairly neutral bystander, the Husker football program hasn't been good in 18 years.  They've been mediocre at times, which might seem good compared to the seasons when they were flat out awful.  But that's like calling a kid with a 2.5 GPA a good student in comparison to all of the C- and D+ students.  You shouldn't be comparing yourself to D+ students, you should be comparing yourself to the kids on honor roll if you think you're smart.

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2 hours ago, aphilso1 said:

 

OK, I'll bite.  When in the last 18 years has Nebraska been good at football?  0 conference titles, 0 major bowl appearances.  Only a few conference title game appearances, despite splitting time in two of the worst divisions (BXII North, B1G West) in Power 5 football.  Obviously "good at football" is subjective, but that's a crap resume unless you've got Kansas or Wake Forest level standards.

 

One top 15 finish in the AP poll in that time, with a ranking that year of 14. I sure don’t call that good.

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16 hours ago, aphilso1 said:

 

By Kansas, Vanderbilt, and Oregon State standards that is good football.  But Kansas, Vanderbilt, and Oregon State are not good football programs.

 

Losing 30% of your games is failing at a good program.

An 18 year drought with zero BCS or New Year's Six Bowl Game appearances is a failure for a good program. 

Only cracking the final Top 15 once in 18 years isn't just failing for good programs, that's failing for a lot of mediocre ones as well.

 

I'm not even really a Husker football fan, I'm one of those weird freaks that loves Husker basketball and baseball but doesn't care about the football team.  I've got no emotional skin in that program.  But coming from a fairly neutral bystander, the Husker football program hasn't been good in 18 years.  They've been mediocre at times, which might seem good compared to the seasons when they were flat out awful.  But that's like calling a kid with a 2.5 GPA a good student in comparison to all of the C- and D+ students.  You shouldn't be comparing yourself to D+ students, you should be comparing yourself to the kids on honor roll if you think you're smart.

Name the D1 P6 programs that had a higher winning % during that time frame. Look it up. You'll be shocked. Spoiler alert we were in the top 10 during that time period.

I do agree though that the Callaghan and Riley years where horrific.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ron Mexico said:

Name the D1 P6 programs that had a higher winning % during that time frame. Look it up. You'll be shocked. Spoiler alert we were in the top 10 during that time period.

I do agree though that the Callaghan and Riley years where horrific.

 

 

Agreed. This is horrific:

 

Screen Shot 2019-02-08 at 1.51.18 PM.png

Screen Shot 2019-02-08 at 1.54.23 PM.png

Edited by jayschool
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21 hours ago, B-town hoopsfan said:

Feasted in the bad half of conferences. Never won games that meant anything during those years. We were average at football 

 

Recruiting was falling off as well.  Add in that Bo Pelini was/is a complete lunatic his firing went beyond the field.  Had he been a normal human being he may have been at Nebraska longer. 

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21 minutes ago, huskerbaseball13 said:

 

Recruiting was falling off as well.  Add in that Bo Pelini was/is a complete lunatic his firing went beyond the field.  Had he been a normal human being he may have been at Nebraska longer. 

I'll concede that recruiting could have been better, but that can be said about a lot of coaches.

The original point by the OP was that Nebraska Football hasn't been good during the last 18yrs which is demonstrably false.

The majority of fans would have been more than OK with him if he had won like Saban, who displays all of the personal characteristics your described.

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19 hours ago, unl said:

I think we see some optimism in this huge meltdown because, we have the most talented team in a long time, and it doesn’t take that much to turn it around. Yes, it is possible, but time is out. It’s now or never. 

It seems like such a turnaround needs to start with Watson trying to make plays for teammates.  I don't know if it is the offense or it is Watson's decision making, but he is not trying to create for his teammates.  In the last four games his assists totals are 1, 1, 0, and 1.  It is not as simple as saying that he is not getting assists because other players are missing their shots.  I have been watching for it and Watson isn't looking to make plays for teammates.  I rewatched the Wisconsin game, and I only counted five times that he made a play that looked like he was trying to get a shot for a teammates.  Only one of these five did the teammate miss the shot.  One was a made basket and the other three they did not get a shot off.   Seems like the point guard should be trying to set up teammates more than five times a game. 

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2 hours ago, BBFan said:

It seems like such a turnaround needs to start with Watson trying to make plays for teammates.  I don't know if it is the offense or it is Watson's decision making, but he is not trying to create for his teammates.  In the last four games his assists totals are 1, 1, 0, and 1.  It is not as simple as saying that he is not getting assists because other players are missing their shots.  I have been watching for it and Watson isn't looking to make plays for teammates.  I rewatched the Wisconsin game, and I only counted five times that he made a play that looked like he was trying to get a shot for a teammates.  Only one of these five did the teammate miss the shot.  One was a made basket and the other three they did not get a shot off.   Seems like the point guard should be trying to set up teammates more than five times a game. 

Watson has never been a point guard in my opinion. He dribbles aimlessly at the top of the key. When he does drive he is out of control and does not see his open teammates.

 

At the end of the first half I told my wife that Watson will dribble the clock out to about 8 seconds then either jack up a desparate off balance three or drive wildly. He drove all the way under the basket and then out to the free throw line where his wild shot was blocked. He he did not see two or three wide open teammates on this predictable journey.

 

On the other hand Thor is always driving and looking for an open teammate but I noticed in his 17 minutes he seldom touched the ball as Watson, Palmer or Allen started with the ball. If Thor is in the game he needs the ball to distribute because his shooting ability is not good.

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5 hours ago, BBFan said:

It seems like such a turnaround needs to start with Watson trying to make plays for teammates.  I don't know if it is the offense or it is Watson's decision making, but he is not trying to create for his teammates.  In the last four games his assists totals are 1, 1, 0, and 1.  It is not as simple as saying that he is not getting assists because other players are missing their shots.  I have been watching for it and Watson isn't looking to make plays for teammates.  I rewatched the Wisconsin game, and I only counted five times that he made a play that looked like he was trying to get a shot for a teammates.  Only one of these five did the teammate miss the shot.  One was a made basket and the other three they did not get a shot off.   Seems like the point guard should be trying to set up teammates more than five times a game. 

 

In Glynn's defense, assists require made baskets.We're not doing that around 70-75% of the time. Not a lot of assists to be had in that environment no matter how many times you pass the ball. 

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9 hours ago, Ron Mexico said:

I'll concede that recruiting could have been better, but that can be said about a lot of coaches.

The original point by the OP was that Nebraska Football hasn't been good during the last 18yrs which is demonstrably false.

The majority of fans would have been more than OK with him if he had won like Saban, who displays all of the personal characteristics your described.

 

Sorry Ron, I respect your opinions and find them reasonable 95% of the time, but every discussion of this sort automatically brings out your defense of the Pelini era.  And there is one thing that needs to be considered about the Pelini era - after November 20, 2010 (the Texas A&M game), he didn't want to be here.  You can put the majority of the blame for that on Harvey Perlman, and you'd be right, but he absolutely wanted out of here after that and pretty much hated this place.  (And after getting completely ass-raped by a crooked officiating crew and then getting the treatment he got from that dumbshit Harvey, I can't say that I really blame him.)

 

But, I admit I was wrong.  We've only been shitty at football for 17 years.

 

Not shitty every single year, mind you, but over that stretch we don't qualify as a high level program.

 

In that time frame, the number of teams with more Top 25 AP finishes than Nebraska:  27.

In that time frame, the number of teams with more Top 20 AP finishes than Nebraska:  32.

In that time frame, the number of teams with more Top 15 AP finishes than Nebraska:  41.

In that time frame, the number of teams with a higher best AP finish than Nebraska's best AP finish:  56.

 

Now that, that I would call shitty.  Nebraska is a football school that hasn't been all that good at football.  If it can't get football right it'll be pretty hard to get men's basketball right, as any good prospective coaches will be leery of the competence level of the entire athletic department.

 

 

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19 hours ago, Dead Dog Alley said:

 

Sorry Ron, I respect your opinions and find them reasonable 95% of the time, but every discussion of this sort automatically brings out your defense of the Pelini era.  And there is one thing that needs to be considered about the Pelini era - after November 20, 2010 (the Texas A&M game), he didn't want to be here.  You can put the majority of the blame for that on Harvey Perlman, and you'd be right, but he absolutely wanted out of here after that and pretty much hated this place.  (And after getting completely ass-raped by a crooked officiating crew and then getting the treatment he got from that dumbshit Harvey, I can't say that I really blame him.)

 

But, I admit I was wrong.  We've only been shitty at football for 17 years.

 

Not shitty every single year, mind you, but over that stretch we don't qualify as a high level program.

 

In that time frame, the number of teams with more Top 25 AP finishes than Nebraska:  27.

In that time frame, the number of teams with more Top 20 AP finishes than Nebraska:  32.

In that time frame, the number of teams with more Top 15 AP finishes than Nebraska:  41.

In that time frame, the number of teams with a higher best AP finish than Nebraska's best AP finish:  56.

 

Now that, that I would call shitty.  Nebraska is a football school that hasn't been all that good at football.  If it can't get football right it'll be pretty hard to get men's basketball right, as any good prospective coaches will be leery of the competence level of the entire athletic department.

 

 

Same 27, 32, 41, and 56 teams over that time frame?

Give me a list of top 25 teams and I'll post their average numbers during that 7yr time span and lets see how that match up.

I'll make it easy for you and let you list the best possible group of teams that you can think of and I'll look at their numbers and compare.

Avg AP finish.

Winning percentage.

Any other numbers you want me to look at?

 

If Nebraska was "shitty" as you say this should be an easy exercise.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ron Mexico said:

Same 27, 32, 41, and 56 teams over that time frame?

Give me a list of top 25 teams and I'll post their average numbers during that 7yr time span and lets see how that match up.

I'll make it easy for you and let you list the best possible group of teams that you can think of and I'll look at their numbers and compare.

Avg AP finish.

Winning percentage.

Any other numbers you want me to look at?

 

If Nebraska was "shitty" as you say this should be an easy exercise.

 

 

 

My mistake, you are not reasonable.

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29 minutes ago, Dead Dog Alley said:

My mistake, you are not reasonable.

Funny that is the way I view most Pelini haters. They can't get past their personal feelings to look at the facts objectively.

Just for fun, as my time permits, I'll pull a list of all of the final top 25 teams for each season during that period of time, those 7yrs, and see how they compared. 

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Just now, Ron Mexico said:

Funny that is the way I view most Pelini haters. They can't get past their personal feelings to look at the facts objectively.

Just for fun, as my time permits, I'll pull a list of all of the final top 25 teams for each season during that period of time, those 7yrs, and see how they compared. 

 

There's nothing personal about it.  Except maybe for someone who reflexively attacks any opinion different than his own.  Also, I think you need to question your own objectivity.

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1 minute ago, Dead Dog Alley said:

 

There's nothing personal about it. Except maybe for someone who reflexively attacks any opinion different than his own.  Also, I think you need to question your own objectivity.

No I reflexively attack blatant falsehoods. My opinion can and does change based on new information. There is no new information to be brought forward with his coaching tenure. I'm no apologists, and have always remained objective, as BP did have his faults and his demise can be partially laid at his own feet. His recruiting wasn't as good as it should have been and he sometimes let let his emotions get the best of him. He wasn't equipped to handle the sensitivities, or ego, of the Nebraska fan base. The opposition however displays no such objectivity. 

What you and others say about 18yrs of bad football is completely false, and demonstrably so. Lumping BP in with BC and MR is slap in the face to what he accomplished here. Was it national title quality, no, but it was definitely much better than bad or mediocre. We were a good football team and significantly better, by a large magnitude than either the BC or MR era. Performance of his tenure was closer to that of FS, who was also unceremoniously sent packing do to the fickle nature of our fan base. They are both treated and regarded similarly as well.

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I was not referring to the Pelini era but to the last 17 years, and the whole point was that the football program is not firmed up, and that's going to affect any possible coaching search in basketball.  But since someone wanted to derail this and make it about the Pelini era, here goes.

 

For the Pelini era only, 2008-2014.

Nebraska's best final AP rankings:
14, 20, 24, 25

 

Teams with 4 or more Top 25 finishes in the AP poll:
7 - Alabama, Oregon
6 - Ohio State, Boise State, Florida State
5 - Texas Christian, Oklahoma, Louisiana State, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Southern Cal, Clemson
4 - Nebraska, Stanford, South Carolina, Georgia, Oklahoma State, Missouri, Virginia Tech

 

Teams with 2 or more Top 20 finishes in the AP poll:
7 - Alabama, Oregon
6 - Ohio State, Boise State
5 - Texas Christian, Oklahoma, Louisiana State
4 - Florida State, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Southern Cal, Stanford, Georgia, Oklahoma State, Missouri
3 - Clemson, South Carolina, Virginia Tech, Florida, Texas, Baylor, Texas A&M, Kansas State, Mississippi
2 - Nebraska, Auburn, Utah, Georgia Tech, Cincinnati, Louisville, Penn State, Arkansas, Notre Dame, UCLA, Mississippi State, Iowa, Oregon State

 

Teams with Top 15 finishes in the AP poll:
7 - Alabama, Oregon
6 - Ohio State
5 - Texas Christian
4 - Boise State, Oklahoma, Louisiana State, Michigan State, Stanford, Florida Staet, Wisconsin, Georgia
3 - Clemson, South Carolina, Florida, Baylor
2 - Southern Cal, Oklahoma State, Missouri, Virginia Tech, Texas, Kansas State, Auburn, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Penn State, Arkansas, Mississippi State
1 - Nebraska, Texas A&M, Mississippi, Utah, Cincinnati, Notre Dame, UCLA, Iowa, Central Florida, Texas Tech, Arizona State, Michigan, Brigham Young, Nevada, Pittsburgh

 

Teams with Top 10 finishes in the AP poll:
7 - Alabama
6 - Oregon
5 - Ohio State
4 - Texas Christian
3 - Boise State, Oklahoma, Stanford, Florida State, South Carolina, Florida
2 - Louisiana State, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Georgia, Southern Cal, Texas, Auburn, Penn State
1 - Clemson, Baylor, Oklahoma State, Missouri, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, Arkansas, Texas A&M, Utah, Cincinnati, Notre Dame, UCLA, Iowa, Central Florida
0 - Nebraska

 

Teams with Top 5 finishes in the AP poll:
4 - Alabama, Oregon, Ohio State
2 - Texas Christian, Florida State, Florida, Michigan State, Texas, Auburn
1 - Oklahoma, Boise State, Stanford, South Carolina, Louisiana State, Georgia, Southern Cal, Oklahoma State, Missouri, Arkansas, Texas A&M, Utah, Notre Dame

 

Teams with Top 2 finishes in the AP poll:
3 - Alabama
2 - Oregon, Auburn
1 - Ohio State, Texas Christian, Florida State, Florida, Texas, Louisiana State, Utah

 

Teams with National Championships in the AP poll:
3 - Alabama
1 - Auburn, Ohio State, Florida State, Florida

 

Teams that finished ranked higher than # 14 in the AP poll at some point:
7 - Alabama, Oregon
6 - Ohio State
4 - Texas Christian, Boise State, Stanford
3 - Florida State, Florida, Michigan State, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Georgia, Wisconsin, Baylor
2 - Auburn, Texas, Louisiana State, Southern Cal, Oklahoma State, Arkansas, Penn State, Clemson, Georgia Tech
1 - Utah, Missouri, Texas A&M, Notre Dame, Virginia Tech, Cincinnati, UCLA, Iowa, Central Florida, Kansas State, Louisville, Mississippi State, Texas Tech, Arizona State, Michigan, Brigham Young, Nevada
0 - Nebraska

 

If you assign 25 points to a #1 final ranking, 24 to a #2, etc., and sum them over those seven years (similar to the way the weekly ranking is compiled)
1-Alabama, 2-Oregon, 3-Ohio State, 4-Texas Christian, 5-Boise State, 6-Oklahoma, 7-Florida State, 8-Stanford, 9-Louisiana State, 10-Michigan State, 11-Florida, 12-Wisconsin, 13-South Carolina, 14-Southern Cal, 15-Georgia, 16-Oklahoma State, 17-Auburn, 18-Texas, 19-Clemson, 20-Missouri, 21-Baylor, 22-Virginia Tech, 23-Utah, 24-Texas A&M, 25-Arkansas, 26-Penn State, 27-Georgia Tech, 28-Kansas State, 29-Notre Dame, 30-Cincinnati, 31-Mississippi, 32-UCLA, 33-Louisville, 34-Mississippi State, 35-Iowa, 36-Central Florida, 37-Nebraska

 

We were more consistent than a lot of other programs during that time, which is why we would rank higher based on winning percentage than by the AP ranking metrics, but there were no peaks either.

 

Edited by Dead Dog Alley
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19 minutes ago, Ron Mexico said:

No I reflexively attack blatant falsehoods. My opinion can and does change based on new information. There is no new information to be brought forward with his coaching tenure. I'm no apologists, and have always remained objective, as BP did have his faults and his demise can be partially laid at his own feet. His recruiting wasn't as good as it should have been and he sometimes let let his emotions get the best of him. He wasn't equipped to handle the sensitivities, or ego, of the Nebraska fan base. The opposition however displays no such objectivity. 

What you and others say about 18yrs of bad football is completely false, and demonstrably so. Lumping BP in with BC and MR is slap in the face to what he accomplished here. Was it national title quality, no, but it was definitely much better than bad or mediocre. We were a good football team and significantly better, by a large magnitude than either the BC or MR era. Performance of his tenure was closer to that of FS, who was also unceremoniously sent packing do to the fickle nature of our fan base. They are both treated and regarded similarly as well.

 

My initial point was not just a reflection on the coaching in that time period, which obviously had its strong points and weak points, but on the athletic administration and especially the chancellor during that time.  Which ties into the firing of the coaches as well.  Was Frank done wrong?  Well, in hindsight, that was a horrible decision.  At that point the best option would have been to keep him on until he had one more bad season, which would have given an AD more free reign in a coaching search instead of the disaster of a search they ended up with.  Was Bo done wrong?  Ignoring the fact that he didn't want to be here and he basically wanted to get fired, as witness his George Costanza-like actions of the 2013 Iowa game, his record as to wins & losses (and graduation percentage) didn't warrant getting fired, which also lead to a shit show of a coaching search.  Again the best option would be to wait for him to have a bad season, which was the way we were trending in a lot of people's view.  So how does that counter my argument that the football program has been mismanaged?  Because it clearly has.

 

 

Edited by Dead Dog Alley
Negative comment deleted upon further reflection
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7 minutes ago, Dead Dog Alley said:

I was not referring to the Pelini era but to the last 17 years, and the whole point was that the football program is not firmed up, and that's going to affect any possible coaching search in basketball.  But since someone wanted to derail this and make it about the Pelini era, here goes.

 

If you assign 25 points to a #1 final ranking, 24 to a #2, etc., and sum them over those seven years (similar to the way the weekly ranking is compiled)
1-Alabama, 2-Oregon, 3-Ohio State, 4-Texas Christian, 5-Boise State, 6-Oklahoma, 7-Florida State, 8-Stanford, 9-Louisiana State, 10-Michigan State, 11-Florida, 12-Wisconsin, 13-South Carolina, 14-Southern Cal, 15-Georgia, 16-Oklahoma State, 17-Auburn, 18-Texas, 19-Clemson, 20-Missouri, 21-Baylor, 22-Virginia Tech, 23-Utah, 24-Texas A&M, 25-Arkansas, 26-Penn State, 27-Georgia Tech, 28-Kansas State, 29-Notre Dame, 30-Cincinnati, 31-Mississippi, 32-UCLA, 33-Louisville, 24-Mississippi State, 35-Iowa, 36-Central Florida, 37-Nebraska

 

Thanks for the list. Will take me a few days to add a few extra data points to complete the picture.

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1 hour ago, Ron Mexico said:

Thanks for the list. Will take me a few days to add a few extra data points to complete the picture.

 

Top 40 Teams by Final AP Cumulative Rankings, 2008-2014, with overall wins and losses, winning percentage, total number of seasons with 11 wins or more, best season record in that time, worst season record in that time, and best final AP ranking.

 

AP Cum. Rk Team W L WL% # 11 win seasons Max Wins Best Record Worst Record Best AP Final
1 Alabama 84 11 0.884 6 14 14-0 10-3 1
2 Oregon 80 14 0.851 5 13 12-1 10-3 2
3 Ohio State 77 16 0.828 5 14 12-0 6-7 1
4 Texas Christian 70 20 0.778 5 13 13-0 4-8 2
5 Boise State 81 12 0.871 6 14 14-0 8-5 4
6 Oklahoma 71 22 0.763 3 12 12-2 8-5 5
7 Florida State 74 21 0.779 3 14 14-0 7-6 1
8 Stanford 67 25 0.728 4 12 12-1 5-7 4
9 Louisiana State 69 23 0.750 2 13 13-1 8-5 2
10 Michigan State 68 21 0.764 4 13 13-1 6-7 3
11 Florida 63 28 0.692 3 13 13-1 4-8 1
12 Wisconsin 67 27 0.713 3 11 11-2 7-6 7
13 South Carolina 63 29 0.685 3 11 11-2 7-6 4
14 Southern Cal 65 26 0.714 1 12 12-1 7-6 3
15 Georgia 64 29 0.688 1 12 12-2 6-7 5
16 Oklahoma State 66 25 0.725 2 12 12-1 7-6 3
17 Auburn 50 33 0.602 2 14 14-0 3-9 1
18 Texas 61 30 0.670 2 13 13-1 5-7 2
19 Clemson 64 29 0.688 2 11 11-2 6-7 8
20 Missouri 64 29 0.688 2 12 12-2 5-7 5
21 Baylor 55 34 0.618 2 11 11-2 4-8 7
22 Virginia Tech 64 30 0.681 2 11 11-3 7-6 10
23 Utah 60 29 0.674 1 13 13-0 5-7 2
24 Texas A&M 54 32 0.628 1 11 11-2 4-8 5
25 Arkansas 48 40 0.545 1 11 11-2 3-9 5
26 Penn State 60 29 0.674 2 11 11-2 7-6 8
27 Georgia Tech 59 35 0.628 2 11 11-3 6-7 8
28 Kansas State 56 33 0.629 1 11 11-2 5-7 12
29 Notre Dame 58 32 0.644 1 12 12-1 6-6 4
30 Cincinnati 65 26 0.714 2 12 12-1 4-8 8
31 Mississippi 48 41 0.539 0 9 9-4 2-10 14
32 UCLA 50 41 0.549 0 10 10-3 4-8 10
33 Louisville 55 34 0.618 2 12 12-1 4-8 13
34 Mississippi State 50 39 0.562 0 10 10-3 4-8 11
35 Iowa 54 36 0.600 1 11 11-2 4-8 7
36 Central Florida 59 32 0.648 2 12 12-1 4-8 10
37 Nebraska 66 28 0.702 0 10 10-4 9-4 14
38 Texas Tech 49 40 0.551 1 11 11-2 4-8 12
39 Arizona State 49 40 0.551 0 10 10-3 4-8 12
40 Michigan 46 42 0.523 1 11 11-2 3-9 12
Edited by Dead Dog Alley
I'm not going to vouch for absolute accuracy of these numbers, but I tried.
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