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Tyronn Lue is the new Head Coach of the Cavs


AuroranHusker

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1 hour ago, LK1 said:

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No, he wouldn't have. Ā Defense is way more physical now, particular on-ball. Ā I think he would've still gotten to the line plenty though (he got a LOT of calls in his prime). Ā Jordan would've dominated today because of his supreme athleticism, but not more than he did then. Ā 

Defensive is way more physical now? You never watched any basketball in the 80's did you. It is so exactly the opposite. Flagrant fouls today wouldn't garner a second look or even be considered hard fouls in the 80's. And on ball is the biggest difference. You were allowed to put a hand on the offensive players' hip and just hold him there. Let's allow Gary Payton or Michael Ray Richardson put their hands on the slight Curry and see how it greatly affects his game. The rules have been changed to allow for more offense. This is not an opinion, the league has openly stated over the years that has been their intention. I can disagree with someone's opinion and that doesn't mean I'm right but this isn't an opinion. You are just factually wrong about when defenses were allowed to be much more physical.

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1 hour ago, atskooc said:

Kareem spent so little time playing defense in the latter part of his career that it even became a joke in the movie Airplane.

The joke was theĀ idiot fans who don't really know what they are talking about and are always complaining not about his effort. The movie came out in 1980 (I Googled it) and I know he retired in 1989. So the joke was made concerning his defensive effort in the 70's. Certainly not the latter part of his career. He averaged over 2.5 blocks a game and is the third all-time leader in blocked shots even factoring in the league didn't start taking stats for this until his fifth year in the league. His stoic nature lead some to believe he wasn't always trying his hardest. Facial expressions shouldn't really be factored in on whether one is a good defensive player of not.

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1 minute ago, Dean Smith said:

The joke was theĀ idiot fans who don't really know what they are talking about and are always complaining not about his effort. The movie came out in 1980 (I Googled it) and I know he retired in 1989. So the joke was made concerning his defensive effort in the 70's. Certainly not the latter part of his career. He averaged over 2.5 blocks a game and is the third all-time leader in blocked shots even factoring in the league didn't start taking stats for this until his fifth year in the league. His stoic nature lead some to believe he wasn't always trying his hardest. Facial expressions shouldn't really be factored in on whether one is a good defensive player of not.

Well, there is that. ;)

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Maybe he took the joke to heart and then started staying on the offensive side of the floor.Ā 

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Thanks for the correction, Dean!

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2 hours ago, LK1 said:

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I join this list of youngins, though I'm Lebron's age. Ā 

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I think he's the best 32 year old player ever--better than Jordan at the same age in almost every category. Ā Everyone makes the Jordan 6-0 in the Finals claim, but that's dumb. Ā Lebron made the Finals at the same age Jordan was getting bounced out of the first rounds. Ā The "clutch" claim is also completely bogus, and the stats back this up as well. Ā We've never seen this caliber of athlete--one who does all this while weighing 40-50lbs more than Patrick Ewing. Ā 

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The only players I've ever been this impressed with as individual players are MJ (career) and Shaq (99-01). Ā I'm guessing Kareem would be as well, but I never got to see him in his prime. Ā 

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Top 10:

1. MJ (for now)

2. Shaq

3. Lebron (for now)

4. Kareem

5. Magic

6. Duncan

7. Kobe

8. Bird

9. Garnett

10. Pippen (most underrated player ever)

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Squad: Ā Magic, MJ, LBJ, Duncan, Shaq

No Chamberlain, no Russell, No Robertson, No West, No Dr j, No CousyĀ 

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4 hours ago, kleitus said:

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You just made my point for me.

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You can't take random weeks off every month during the regular season and then turn it on in the playoffs every year and complain constantly about supporting cast.... then go win anyway.

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He doesn't put in effort consistently. Ā Sure the finals were great. Ā That team should win 70. Ā What did they win... 56?

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Why? Ā Because lebron ain't trying.

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Somehow because he tries in the playoffsĀ that excuses him.

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Sure... he won that title singlehandedly. Ā He could probably win 65-70Ā singlehandedly too. Ā Every year.

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He doesn't try. Ā Until he does.

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If he actually tried he would be in the top 2. Ā He doesnt.

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Funny.Ā  I remember when all the LeBron haters would say "yeah, he's a great regular season player...but he chokes when it counts in the playoffs."Ā  Now you're arguing against his greatness because he doesn't do more in the regular season?Ā  Please.Ā  The Gregg Popovich mentality has taken over the NBA, and rendered the regular season meaningless and barely watchable league-wide.Ā 

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1 minute ago, aphilso1 said:

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Funny.Ā  I remember when all the LeBron haters would say "yeah, he's a great regular season player...but he chokes when it counts in the playoffs."Ā  Now you're arguing against his greatness because he doesn't do more in the regular season?Ā  Please.Ā  The Gregg Popovich mentality has taken over the NBA, and rendered the regular season meaningless and barely watchable league-wide.Ā 

The sheer number of games makes the regular season meaningless.

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colhusker, LeBron James is the best basketball player I've seen since I began watching the sport (I was raised in a Michael Jordan household but he retired before I was old enough to understand what I was watching).Ā 

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I have not closely studied every hall of famer's entire career; therefore, I'm not qualified to accurately rank the all-time greats in a specific order. However, I have a hard time putting many players above LeBron James. I feel confident that there has never been another player with his combination of physical tools, skills and intelligence in the history of the sport.Ā 

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Every great player has had flaws. "Not trying hard enough" is certainly not one that disqualifies LeBron from the GOAT conversation. Does he go all-out on defense every second he's on the court? No. But nobody does. He's been in the league 14 years and has played in about 94% of his team's regular season games, which is an absurd number and doesn't even include his 211 playoff games. Add in his incredibly high usage rate and the amount of responsibility he has shouldered over that time and the fact that he is playing at as high of a level as he ever has is truly remarkable.Ā 

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For whatever reason, people seem to like holding up past greats as unrealistic gold standards while putting a microscope on today's greats to prove that they just don't stack up. Saying LeBron James belongs in the discussion with Michael Jordan doesn't take away anything that Magic Johnson or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar did. They're all insanely good basketball players. A lot of very smart basketball people that get paid to write about the game think it's Michael and LeBron atop the all-time rankings right now, so it's certainly not a ridiculous conversation.

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As for the defenses of different eras, the rules certainly have changed to favor the offense, but defensive schemes have come an incredibly long way as well. Assuming any great from the past could be dropped into today's game and dominate far beyond what he did in his era is just flawed thinking.Ā Ā 

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Jacob: If you plan to continue to write about basketball I strongly suggest you read "The Book of Basketball" by Bill Simmons. In addition to being a pretty funny guy, he knows a lot about the game which he manages to cram into only 700 pages. Part of the book rates the "all time best" players. Jordan is #1. He rated LeBron #20. It was written in 2009, and I'm sure he would now make the top 10.

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11 minutes ago, jimmykc said:

Jacob: If you plan to continue to write about basketball I strongly suggest you read "The Book of Basketball" by Bill Simmons. In addition to being a pretty funny guy, he knows a lot about the game which he manages to cram into only 700 pages. Part of the book rates the "all time best" players. Jordan is #1. He rated LeBron #20. It was written in 2009, and I'm sure he would now make the top 10.

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Already read it. Enjoyed it quite a bit.

Edited by Jacob Padilla
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6 hours ago, Jacob Padilla said:

colhusker, LeBron James is the best basketball player I've seen since I began watching the sport (I was raised in a Michael Jordan household but he retired before I was old enough to understand what I was watching).Ā 

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I have not closely studied every hall of famer's entire career; therefore, I'm not qualified to accurately rank the all-time greats in a specific order. However, I have a hard time putting many players above LeBron James. I feel confident that there has never been another player with his combination of physical tools, skills and intelligence in the history of the sport.Ā 

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Every great player has had flaws. "Not trying hard enough" is certainly not one that disqualifies LeBron from the GOAT conversation. Does he go all-out on defense every second he's on the court? No. But nobody does. He's been in the league 14 years and has played in about 94% of his team's regular season games, which is an absurd number and doesn't even include his 211 playoff games. Add in his incredibly high usage rate and the amount of responsibility he has shouldered over that time and the fact that he is playing at as high of a level as he ever has is truly remarkable.Ā 

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For whatever reason, people seem to like holding up past greats as unrealistic gold standards while putting a microscope on today's greats to prove that they just don't stack up. Saying LeBron James belongs in the discussion with Michael Jordan doesn't take away anything that Magic Johnson or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar did. They're all insanely good basketball players. A lot of very smart basketball people that get paid to write about the game think it's Michael and LeBron atop the all-time rankings right now, so it's certainly not a ridiculous conversation.

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As for the defenses of different eras, the rules certainly have changed to favor the offense, but defensive schemes have come an incredibly long way as well. Assuming any great from the past could be dropped into today's game and dominate far beyond what he did in his era is just flawed thinking.Ā Ā 

The rules have clearly changed, I seldom watch the NBA, okay rarely at best, because of it. Ā I did watch a bit of the playoff games. Ā I grow tired of watching players catch a pass at the top of the key and move both feet to get set then take another before dribbling. Ā Guys like Robertson, Cousey and others would have been far more athletic had they been able to travel EVERY time they touch the ball. Ā Please understand I think Lebron is a great player, just not willing to say greatest (yes in top 10 and or 5) based on what he is allowed to do that those before him could not.

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10 hours ago, Dean Smith said:

Defensive is way more physical now? You never watched any basketball in the 80's did you. It is so exactly the opposite. Flagrant fouls today wouldn't garner a second look or even be considered hard fouls in the 80's. And on ball is the biggest difference. You were allowed to put a hand on the offensive players' hip and just hold him there. Let's allow Gary Payton or Michael Ray Richardson put their hands on the slight Curry and see how it greatly affects his game. The rules have been changed to allow for more offense. This is not an opinion, the league has openly stated over the years that has been their intention. I can disagree with someone's opinion and that doesn't mean I'm right but this isn't an opinion. You are just factually wrong about when defenses were allowed to be much more physical.

Ā 

I've watched 80s games. Ā I see slow players who weighed an average of 15-20lbs less than today's players. Ā I see no help defense because it wasn't allowed. Ā Players back then wouldn't even be capable of knocking over a Lebron James because he would weigh 40-50lbs more than anyone else on the court. Ā Weight matters a lot in terms of physicality, and so does allowing zone and help defense in the lane. Ā Were players dirtier back then? Ā Sure. Ā More physical? Ā No. Ā The game was slower all the way into the late 90s when iso ball was at its all time high. Ā Jordan would not have the 1on1 advantage he had then in today's game. Ā I do think he'd get similar numbers though because the pace has increased so much. Ā When I say "physical" I'm also referring to the athleticism of help defense. Ā You are way more likely to get a shot blocked going to the rim in today's game, which is one of the reasons the three point shot has become so crucial. Ā 

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Also, regarding hand-checking, there were plenty of dominant offensive players who played through both eras and had virtually no change in their game stats. Ā 

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As for Payton checking the "slight" Curry, you're making my point for me: Ā Curry outweighs Payton by 10lbs and weighs the same as MRR. Ā The fact that he looks "slight" to you says a whole lot about the physical prowess of today's players. Ā Hell, Steve Nash was the same size as Payton. Ā 

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Jacob: Another couple of books for your must read list are , of course , "Nebrasketball" which I assume you have already read, and JohnĀ  Feinstein's book " The Legend's Club" which actually makes you like Mike Krzyzewski and be able to spell his name without looking it up.

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18 hours ago, atskooc said:

The sheer number of games makes the regular season meaningless.

and teams and players.

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Too much bad.

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More doesn't always mean good, too many bad teams, too many bad players to many bad games.

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If the league was cut in half and the top teams played in one league and the other half played in the second level. Ā And then the bottom 3 or 4 teams were dropped down and the top 3 or 4 were moved up you would get better games during the season. Ā Much like they do in soccer. Ā Relegation is great forĀ motivation for teams and fans.

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Fan based are crushed and teams are really held accounable when relegated. Ā  Ā 

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I just think all American Pro Sports are too water downed with too many bad teams, bad players, bad coaches and bad organizations.

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16 minutes ago, Silverbacked1 said:

and teams and players.

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Too much bad.

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More doesn't always mean good, too many bad teams, too many bad players to many bad games.

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If the league was cut in half and the top teams played in one league and the other half played in the second level. Ā And then the bottom 3 or 4 teams were dropped down and the top 3 or 4 were moved up you would get better games during the season. Ā Much like they do in soccer. Ā Relegation is great forĀ motivation for teams and fans.

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Fan based are crushed and teams are really held accounable when relegated. Ā  Ā 

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I just think all American Pro Sports are too water downed with too many bad teams, bad players, bad coaches and bad organizations.

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Kinda like "select" baseball.

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11 hours ago, LK1 said:

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I've watched 80s games. Ā I see slow players who weighed an average of 15-20lbs less than today's players. Ā I see no help defense because it wasn't allowed. Ā Players back then wouldn't even be capable of knocking over a Lebron James because he would weigh 40-50lbs more than anyone else on the court. Ā Weight matters a lot in terms of physicality, and so does allowing zone and help defense in the lane. Ā Were players dirtier back then? Ā Sure. Ā More physical? Ā No. Ā The game was slower all the way into the late 90s when iso ball was at its all time high. Ā Jordan would not have the 1on1 advantage he had then in today's game. Ā I do think he'd get similar numbers though because the pace has increased so much. Ā When I say "physical" I'm also referring to the athleticism of help defense. Ā You are way more likely to get a shot blocked going to the rim in today's game, which is one of the reasons the three point shot has become so crucial. Ā 

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Also, regarding hand-checking, there were plenty of dominant offensive players who played through both eras and had virtually no change in their game stats. Ā 

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As for Payton checking the "slight" Curry, you're making my point for me: Ā Curry outweighs Payton by 10lbs and weighs the same as MRR. Ā The fact that he looks "slight" to you says a whole lot about the physical prowess of today's players. Ā Hell, Steve Nash was the same size as Payton. Ā 

Darryl Dawkins says hello, Moses Malone, Karl Malone and Gus Johnson are in line to say hello too

Edited by colhusker
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21 hours ago, Dean Smith said:

Defensive is way more physical now? You never watched any basketball in the 80's did you. It is so exactly the opposite. Flagrant fouls today wouldn't garner a second look or even be considered hard fouls in the 80's. And on ball is the biggest difference. You were allowed to put a hand on the offensive players' hip and just hold him there. Let's allow Gary Payton or Michael Ray Richardson put their hands on the slight Curry and see how it greatly affects his game. The rules have been changed to allow for more offense. This is not an opinion, the league has openly stated over the years that has been their intention. I can disagree with someone's opinion and that doesn't mean I'm right but this isn't an opinion. You are just factually wrong about when defenses were allowed to be much more physical.

Dean is spot on here. Look how scoring has increased again over the last few years. Ā When the Pistons were the "Bad Boys" they knocked guys into the basket standard on a regular basis. Ā Today that would be a Flagrant foul and then some. Ā More physical today? Ā Not only no, but hell no.

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In defense of today's players part of taking the physical play away is the large contracts. Ā Same reason football is getting watered down and to an lesser extent, baseball.

Edited by colhusker
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There's something inherently flawed about trying to compare players of different eras by suggesting what the modern guys would have done if they'd played against guys from 30 years ago.Ā  If Lebron had been around in the 80s, he wouldn't be 30 pounds heavier.Ā  He'd weigh what those guys weighed.

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It's like the argument about the best college football teams of all-time.Ā  According to some pundits, the 70-71 Huskers were among the best college football teams of all time.Ā  But I've heard people like Kirk HerbstreitĀ make the claim that they would get destroyed by 2014 Ohio State team.Ā  Well, yeah, with modern weight training, etc., of course Ohio State would obliterate the '71 Huskers.Ā  But compare them against their peers.

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If Michael Jordan were playing the game today, he'd be stronger and even more explosive.

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If Lebron had played 30 years ago, he'd be a smaller, less physically dominant guy.

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You can't put Lebron of 2017 onto a 1980s basketball court and say that you're making a relevant comparison.Ā  In that case, few players from the last century would even play in the modern NBA.

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The better comparison is how did they do against the guys they played against back when they were playing.

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By the way, Dustin Johnson of 2017 would absolutely obliterate Jack Nicklaus of 1964 off the tee.Ā  Who owns more Major Championships?

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This is the one thing that makes the agruement of who is best all time both fun and so upsetting. Ā 

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How would some of today's guys liked being thrown to the ground as they went up for a lay up every time? Ā 

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How would some of the older guys handled being able to get the extra step and not being pushed on all the time?

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The biggest one I think the difference is in strength andĀ nutrition. Think about it Jesse Owens was the fastest man in the world, he ran on a cinder track, dug holes for starting blocks and wasn't allowed to eat in more than half of the inĀ restaurants in the country that he lived in.

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I know that Bolt only ate chicken nuggets in Russia or where ever but he still has had reaaly good food up to that point I would think.

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Think about injuries. Ā Old timers who careers where done with injuries that now can be fixed and you can come back better and stronger.

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I think a lot of people don't really think about some of theseĀ things when they look into say who was the best ever in any sport, I try to at least throw that in when I get into these agruements.

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Edited by Silverbacked1
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30 minutes ago, kldm64 said:

I'd take MJ or LeBron anyday if I could only pick one player.Ā  MJ just had a competitive and killer instinct that nobody else had on the same level.

How is that something that can even be measured? What was his level of competitive instinct?Ā  What is LeBron's level? What was Bird's level? What was Bill Russell's level?

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