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NBA Playoffs

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2 hours ago, Chuck Taylor said:

I know comparing guys of different eras always involves a lot of "what ifs", but the defensive scheming is big for me as well. Zone was outlawed, so MJ was able to do a lot more damage one on one than LB. The counter-argument is that the 3 pt shooters are better now, so helping comes at a price. As for the best ever, I'm probably in the camp with the big guys: Russell (the biggest winner in the history of basketball) and the unstoppable Wilt and Kareem. The defensive domination of the bigs trumps the offense from the wings. LB over MJ and the Big O if we're talking about playmaking wings.

 

If we're talking greatest collegian ever, I'll take Lew Alcindor by a mile. Most dominant player ever, and I hated UCLA.

You've probably heard this story, but when Alcindor was a freshman ( which were ineligible then) he and his classmates scrimmaged the Varsity, who were defending National Champs, and beat 'em.

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4 hours ago, Chuck Taylor said:

I know comparing guys of different eras always involves a lot of "what ifs", but the defensive scheming is big for me as well. Zone was outlawed, so MJ was able to do a lot more damage one on one than LB. The counter-argument is that the 3 pt shooters are better now, so helping comes at a price. As for the best ever, I'm probably in the camp with the big guys: Russell (the biggest winner in the history of basketball) and the unstoppable Wilt and Kareem. The defensive domination of the bigs trumps the offense from the wings. LB over MJ and the Big O if we're talking about playmaking wings.

 

If we're talking greatest collegian ever, I'll take Lew Alcindor by a mile. Most dominant player ever, and I hated UCLA.

As someone who watched a lot basketball during that time, zone was illegal but used often. And there was no freedom of movement rules without E.J. defender being able to hand check the ball handler and when you did get to the basket, many times you found a clothes line waiting for you so personally I.think 1 v 1 is easier today but that’s just my opinion. 

 

Jabbar was amazing. Freshmen were ineligible at that time but his UCLA freshmen team beat the varsity in a preseason open scrimmage and then the varsity went on to win the national championship. 

 

Didn’t have the titles but has to be in the discussion of all time college player is one Ralph Sampson. 

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Not sure what era dean is talking about but Zone was certainly not used often in the Jordan Reggie Miller etc era.  Was so easy to identify illegal defense.  You couldn’t play zone.  You couldn’t even double a guy until he got the ball which guaranteed a second or two of one on one coverage and is a huge reason why Jordan was so good.  He dominated those second or twos.  

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1 hour ago, royalfan said:

Not sure what era dean is talking about but Zone was certainly not used often in the Jordan Reggie Miller etc era.  Was so easy to identify illegal defense.  You couldn’t play zone.  You couldn’t even double a guy until he got the ball which guaranteed a second or two of one on one coverage and is a huge reason why Jordan was so good.  He dominated those second or twos.  

I remember at least one “zone” technical called every game that I watched.  The Pistons were infamous for its use. One reason given for legalizing the zone was that everybody was doing it all ready.  The most common way to create 1 on 1’s and avoid the double/zone in that era was to iso you player in the post. So Jordan did benefit but they guys that really benefited were the Barkley’s and Aguirre’s of The world. 

 

Zone and man man aren’t really that different. A good man team will have the help side defenders that meet the original rules of being a zone in the NBA. 

Edited by Dean Smith

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58 minutes ago, colhusker said:

Is there any reason for Game 3 to not be tonight?  

 

Well everybody didn't think that the Cav's would get this far so I heard there is a Wiggle's concert tonight so the game had to be moved.🤨

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2 hours ago, royalfan said:

Not sure what era dean is talking about but Zone was certainly not used often in the Jordan Reggie Miller etc era.  Was so easy to identify illegal defense.  You couldn’t play zone.  You couldn’t even double a guy until he got the ball which guaranteed a second or two of one on one coverage and is a huge reason why Jordan was so good.  He dominated those second or twos.  

 

Zone happened ENTIRELY because of Shaq, which is another reason why I think he was the best player ever at his peak.  Absolutely unstoppable.  

 

How could anyone possibly be better than or stop this?

 

 

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22 hours ago, bleujay said:

for me, MJ still holds the GOAT because:

-team's best player, leading one franchise to an effective six consecutive championships in the modern nba

-commitment to defense (or just winning at all costs)

 

plus, I do not like how lebron has been pulling strings in the cavs franchise. you're a player, not a staff member or part of the front office. and yes, the cavs are awful, but lebron drove away his second best player and negotiated huge contracts for some of these dead-weight players.

 

those are basically the only guys in the league that size that can handle the ball well. every era has a seldom few. Hell, KD's handle kinda sucks. This type of player is still extremely valuable and rare - tall and has good court vision/ball handling, its the only reason Luka Doncic is a top 3 pick. Personally I think young players come into the league with less halfcourt skill than they did 10 years ago. Simmons is the perfect example. His mobility and size are lethal in transition, but his lack of a jump shot makes him horrible in a slower paced game. And the playoffs are always slower paced, much less transition game..he was a nonfactor much of the time against boston. IMO it will be a long time before the NBA plays positionless basketball. A player's skillset too often gravitates around their size - e.g. small guys are low to the ground and handle the ball well. 

 

1.  MJ didn't get six consecutive championships.  He was a gambling addict and took two years off.  

2.  Agree he was a great defender, but he had the best defender(s) in the game with Pippen and Rodman.  

3.  Lebron didn't want Kyrie gone.  He was openly against it and called the front office to voice his opposition.  That's why he's leaving next season.  His orchestrated roster/coach is one of the only reasons the Cavs got a ring.  He was one of the best GMs in the league that year in acquiring Love and the Knicks' best players.  

4.  I hear you, but I'm noticing that they are all on playoff teams (Giannis, KD, Lebron, Simmons, Anthony Davis), and two of them are in the finals now.  Out of this group, the ones with the best shooters (Lebron, KD) got there.  MJ created the SG prototype.  Lebron has done the same thing with point-forwards.  They, of course, don't grow on trees, but way more bigs are developing a perimeter game at a young age because the writing is on the wall for the league.  I agree with you about Simmons' game.  He's always going to be limited (just like Magic was) due to no jump shot.  

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9 hours ago, Chuck Taylor said:

I know comparing guys of different eras always involves a lot of "what ifs", but the defensive scheming is big for me as well. Zone was outlawed, so MJ was able to do a lot more damage one on one than LB. The counter-argument is that the 3 pt shooters are better now, so helping comes at a price. As for the best ever, I'm probably in the camp with the big guys: Russell (the biggest winner in the history of basketball) and the unstoppable Wilt and Kareem. The defensive domination of the bigs trumps the offense from the wings. LB over MJ and the Big O if we're talking about playmaking wings.

 

If we're talking greatest collegian ever, I'll take Lew Alcindor by a mile. Most dominant player ever, and I hated UCLA.

Chuck, we are in agreement on Russell. I think he has the best case for GOAT outside of Jordan. He made every game miserable for Wilt for a long time. He was often the fastest guy on the court and he could handle/pass the ball as well. Coach Red used him as the focal point of celtics offenses. He was addicted to scouting reports and used them to counter his opponents' offense. He was also one of the first guys to study angles of missed shots and predicting the ball's rebound off the rim/backboard. When he was in college it was obvious he was a highly cerebral player even though his skillset lacked polish; cerebral but also quite physically gifted. He landed in the perfect franchise to cement his legacy.

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10 minutes ago, LK1 said:

 

1.  MJ didn't get six consecutive championships.  He was a gambling addict and took two years off.  

2.  Agree he was a great defender, but he had the best defender(s) in the game with Pippen and Rodman.  

3.  Lebron didn't want Kyrie gone.  He was openly against it and called the front office to voice his opposition.  That's why he's leaving next season.  His orchestrated roster/coach is one of the only reasons the Cavs got a ring.  He was one of the best GMs in the league that year in acquiring Love and the Knicks' best players.  

4.  I hear you, but I'm noticing that they are all on playoff teams (Giannis, KD, Lebron, Simmons, Anthony Davis), and two of them are in the finals now.  Out of this group, the ones with the best shooters (Lebron, KD) got there.  MJ created the SG prototype.  Lebron has done the same thing with point-forwards.  They, of course, don't grow on trees, but way more bigs are developing a perimeter game at a young age because the writing is on the wall for the league.  I agree with you about Simmons' game.  He's always going to be limited (just like Magic was) due to no jump shot.  

however you want to phrase it, there were no years MJ played in the NBA during that time period when he didn't win a championship. that's why its an 'effective' streak. i would also counter that lebron did not create the point-forward prototype - Magic and Bird were the first, then a handful of guys like Charles Barkley, Grant Hill, and Penny Hardaway were a second wave. Lebron is definitely the ideal for the position though, in terms of size, speed, and skillset. I will give you that. And he has basically set the standard for it going forward in the NBA (people constantly comparing Giannis and Simmons to him). 

 

I also agree with you on your point of big men trying to develop perimeter skills early on, but I think a lot of the younger players have it backwards. They want to work from the outside-in on their skillset, they should be doing it the other way around. Obviously learning to shoot at a young age gives you a huge leg up - it doesn't matter how tall you are at 17.

Edited by bleujay

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3 hours ago, LK1 said:

 

Zone happened ENTIRELY because of Shaq, which is another reason why I think he was the best player ever at his peak.  Absolutely unstoppable.  

 

How could anyone possibly be better than or stop this?

 

 

Perhaps I would rate him a bit higher if he could shoot free throws and had a bit more of an offensive arsenal.   He really is a lot like Wilt, but he is more athletic than Wilt.  But then again, Wilt was pretty athletic when he was younger...and he is the only player ever to score over 100 points, in one game; and average over 40 points for a season, and over 50 points a season, and win seven scoring and eleven rebounding titles.  And oh yeah, he is the only player to average 30+ points and 20+ rebounds a season...and oh yeah, he did that seven times.  He also lead the league in assists once.  And to top all of that, he claims to have [ahem] "slept" with 20,000+ women.  It is hard to believe any of the above is true.

Edited by Huskerpapa

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12 hours ago, bleujay said:

however you want to phrase it, there were no years MJ played in the NBA during that time period when he didn't win a championship. that's why its an 'effective' streak. i would also counter that lebron did not create the point-forward prototype - Magic and Bird were the first, then a handful of guys like Charles Barkley, Grant Hill, and Penny Hardaway were a second wave. Lebron is definitely the ideal for the position though, in terms of size, speed, and skillset. I will give you that. And he has basically set the standard for it going forward in the NBA (people constantly comparing Giannis and Simmons to him). 

 

I also agree with you on your point of big men trying to develop perimeter skills early on, but I think a lot of the younger players have it backwards. They want to work from the outside-in on their skillset, they should be doing it the other way around. Obviously learning to shoot at a young age gives you a huge leg up - it doesn't matter how tall you are at 17.

People forget Jordan did play part of a year in between his 17 game performance and second round exit ...when he was wearing #45

 

Agree about working from the inside to the outside...Curry is a great example of that, i read where he wasn't allowed by his father to shoot threes for a long time to develop his shot.

 

 

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23 hours ago, Dean Smith said:

As someone who watched a lot basketball during that time, zone was illegal but used often. And there was no freedom of movement rules without E.J. defender being able to hand check the ball handler and when you did get to the basket, many times you found a clothes line waiting for you so personally I.think 1 v 1 is easier today but that’s just my opinion. 

 

Jabbar was amazing. Freshmen were ineligible at that time but his UCLA freshmen team beat the varsity in a preseason open scrimmage and then the varsity went on to win the national championship. 

 

Didn’t have the titles but has to be in the discussion of all time college player is one Ralph Sampson. 

I believe Sampson was the only player to win POY honors 4 times in College.

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This one just might be all but over. Credit to the Warriors for being such a strong 2nd half team, but the Cavs are just flat. Probably made it one stage further in the tournament than they probably should have, so kudos to them for that.

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3 hours ago, Handy Johnson said:

I pray to God there isn't a "Decision II" on ESPN where James brags about winning 8 Titles when he's won a whopping 3 and lost 6.

Are you sure he wasn't bragging about 8 Eastern conference titles?  He got those.

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4 hours ago, Handy Johnson said:

I pray to God there isn't a "Decision II" on ESPN where James brags about winning 8 Titles when he's won a whopping 3 and lost 6.

 

Decision 1 was bad PR with good intentions. LBJ raised $1.5 million for poor kids that night soley because he chose to broadcast.  I doubt he regrets doing it as much as some might think.  

 

Decision 2 will probably be done quietly.  Rockets.  

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3 hours ago, LK1 said:

 

Decision 1 was bad PR with good intentions. LBJ raised $1.5 million for poor kids that night soley because he chose to broadcast.  I doubt he regrets doing it as much as some might think.  

 

Decision 2 will probably be done quietly.  Rockets.  

I hope you're right, he'd be a perfect fit with Harden and Paul. ANYWHERE but Los Angeles...

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2 hours ago, jason2486 said:

I'm just sick of seeing the Warriors have 5 all Stars play, 2-3 of them can no-show, yet they still win. Almost impossible to beat. I still am upset at KD for running to a team he couldn't beat.

 

That makes no sense to be upset with KD.  If you were in his shoes and had a chance to go to a better team and win championships, would you turn that down?  Guys get traded and go to different teams every year but yet somehow people are upset with KD for doing it.  I would have done the exact same thing.

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31 minutes ago, kldm64 said:

 

That makes no sense to be upset with KD.  If you were in his shoes and had a chance to go to a better team and win championships, would you turn that down?  Guys get traded and go to different teams every year but yet somehow people are upset with KD for doing it.  I would have done the exact same thing.

Getting mad at KD because he bettered his work situation is just the same as if I got mad at a teacher in my building who got a job as a principal at a nearby school. 

 

It's a business, and KD made a business situation.

 

If you think KD should have stayed with the Thunder and just put the work in to win, then you should think that you should never go to a different job at a better company; you should just stay at your current job and work hard to make it better than the other place.

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