Jump to content

uneblinstu's post game chatter: vol 5, ed 20 - Northwestern


uneblinstu

Recommended Posts

RE--the Tim/Bo getting fired up discussion.   This is what I said re this subject a week or two ago.   It was specifically about giving it to the refs, but it applies to how Tim treats his  players too I think....

 

TheGov21, on 17 Jan 2013 - 11:29, said:snapback.png

Last
night was my first chance to see this team in person (which was long
overdue) so it was nice to see it live than watching it on TV.

 


-Don't get me wrong.  I loved that Miles let the refs have it a
couple of times during time outs.  I also noticed the crowd loved it
too.  However I wondered if a lot of the people who cheered him "giving
it to the refs" are the same people who get mad when Pelini does in on
the sidelines.  Just a thought.


I'd be one of them for sure.  No contradiction in my mind at all b/c
NO comparison.   You gotta know when and how and most importantly not
get spittle on the guy AND not come really close to bitting his nose AND
not having the guy be so distracted by your behavior that he is not
hearing you b/c he's standing there seriously wondering if you will
literally explode.


 


BTW, glad you got to go in person last night !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've attended all the home games this year.  This was the first time I saw Miles really go after his players in a timeout.  Actually call the timeout for that purpose.  That's been, what, close to a dozen games or so?  That's basically the equivalent of an entire football season.  So, in all that time, Miles has come unglued at his players once.  

 

Every now and then, players probably need to see their coach fired up.  Every now and then.

 

I really don't have a strong opinion on Bo and his yelling.  But I don't think you can point to Miles having an explosion in one game and say that it's the same thing as Bo and that people are somehow being hypocrites if they object to Bo's explosions if they don't also criticize Miles.  Frequency is a factor that you have to consider.  Does it happen all the time or only on those occasions when it seems like the players need a good swift kick in the arse?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've attended all the home games this year.  This was the first time I saw Miles really go after his players in a timeout.  Actually call the timeout for that purpose.  That's been, what, close to a dozen games or so?  That's basically the equivalent of an entire football season.  So, in all that time, Miles has come unglued at his players once.  

 

Every now and then, players probably need to see their coach fired up.  Every now and then.

 

I really don't have a strong opinion on Bo and his yelling.  But I don't think you can point to Miles having an explosion in one game and say that it's the same thing as Bo and that people are somehow being hypocrites if they object to Bo's explosions if they don't also criticize Miles.  Frequency is a factor that you have to consider.  Does it happen all the time or only on those occasions when it seems like the players need a good swift kick in the arse?

 

This was certainly the most dramatic event of the season - but there have been plenty of times when Miles got in the face of the players during games and was very emphatic about yelling at them.   I want to emphasize here that I do not think Miles is doing anything wrong and I am not criticizing him for any of this.  His behavior is not significantly different than any other college basketball coach in this area - and not as bad as some.   Although the manner in which Miles called the timeout the other day certainly stood out.

 

My points were twofold - first that the same can be said regarding Pelini.  HIs yelling at players or refs is no different than any number of college football coaches.  Watch Nick Saban or Will Muschamp closely sometime and you will see them go as far or farther than anything Pelini has ever done.  But Pelini has a "reputation" for this now so the media focuses on it and fans bring it up if they are already predisposed to not like him for some reason.   If you like Pelini (or Saban etc.) then their outbursts are "colorful" and show enthusiasm.  If you don't like the coach then your reaction to the outbursts is negative.

 

That really is the second point - people's attitudes about these things are clearly colored by their opinions on the coach.  Danny Nee took alot of criticism at the end of his tenure for yelling at his players - and Moe got some of the same thing as well.   But Danny never called out his players in the public manner that Miles did the other day.  When Danny was winning no one criticized his behavior but when we started to struggle it became an issue for people.  For the people saying that there is "no comparison" between the actions of Miles and Pelini - the difference is really that they like Miles and don't like Pelini.  That is almost certainly a much clearer distinction than any difference in their actual behavior.

 

I once personally was in hearing range when Jim Calhoun at UConn went after a player and said things that I could not believe - and I have a high degree of tolerance in that area.  I was embarrassed by the language and franly surprised the player did not throw a punch at him - certainly no one could ever talk to someone like that away from the court without creating a physical confrontation.  But Calhoun is a beloved Hall of Fame coach - and ultimately both fans and players supported him.   To me as long as the players know that the coach has their back in the end they will take alot of immediate abuse and in the end love and respect that coach.  That is how you should judge a coaches behavior in my mind - what the players think of that coach overall - outside the immediate intense situation.   FWIW in that regard I think you will have a hard time finding a coach who is more respected by his players than Bo Pelini.

 

Also - in reference to the comment about "spittle" in the face of the ref - beyond the fact that you will see the exact same thing form Saban and any number of other current coaches - I have to add that perhaps the angriest confrontation between a coach yelling at a ref that I have personally witnessed was at halftime of the 1982 Orange Bowl vs. Clemson by a beloved coach whose face at the time was much redder than his hair.  Nothing Pelini has done at NU goes beyond what TO was feeling that day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

HuskerBB, I beg to differ about Danny.  I've mentioned on here before his conduct during practices that I watched.  That was before the boycott and when that boycott happened, I had to say it didn't surprise me.  Danny was still winning at that point, but I wanted him gone then.  When he was interviewing at Rutgers or wherever, I rejoiced. 

 

I see something qualitatively different about Danny and Timmy.  And basketball is a different sport.  The bench is a lot more accessible to a coach who needs to do some extra "coaching" than in football. 

 

I guess, in my view with Bo, he goes to the well too often with the demonstrative anger bit.  I honestly haven't seen that out of Miles even considering the bench is right there.  We talked about this kind of thing years ago in my military leadership training.  If a leader is constantly chewing his subordinate's asses, it loses effectiveness.  It might work as a once-in-awhile thing but not as your go-to, standard practice. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Might I add,

 

Football is a sport of high emotion and high levels of contact that is not found in many other sports.  It tends to fire people up physically, mentally and emotionally.  That is why we see coaches coming unglued at times.

 

Basketball is a sport that requires some what less of a level of the before mentioned -ally.  Not to say one does not get fired up at basketball games.  It just seems to be at a lesser degree.

 

So therefore coaches tend to be ,maybe, more loud and "out of control" in football than basketball.

 

This might not mean anything, just what I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolute no comparison between Bo and TM IMO.  There is a HUGE difference between a CONTROLLED and completely calculated butt-chewing that a team needs to regain its focus (Miles) vs. a completely out-of-control spewing of unrestrained vitriol by a raving lunatic who is foaming at the mouth.  Further, TM's little outburst was directed at the entire team--no individual player was singled out or shamed in any regard.  Further, even though I have heard and know that TM can have a sharp tongue, I don't think those words were used in the arena at that time because that was not the proper time for those words,  Bo's completely out-of-control tantrums make censors cower and sailors blush.  Not to mention his face looks like a madman who is ready to rip the players (or refs) head off, chew on it, and spit it out. 

 

When Bo goes on a rage, he is out-of-control.  He is raving and ranting because he is utterly beside himself and says the things he says out of rage, not out of correction or teaching.  When it reaches that point, it is beyond the pale.  Just look at his conduct after the NU v. TX game in the Big 12 championship.  He was still enraged almost an hour after the game.  He was storming up and down the halls looking like he wanted to beats someone up and yelling "The BCS, that's why they make that call!"  to no one in particular while TO was calmly standing in the same hallway to witness the whole ordeal.    Bo call's refs names that are unrepeatable in any living room.  This is in STARK contrast to TM's technical against Purdue when all TM did was walk to center court and yell "you need to call that travel!"  No profanitly laced tirade for the whole world to hear.  TM was in control the whole time and it was obvious.  THAT Is the huge difference and the whole difference.

 

And for the record, I would never want Bobby Knight to coach here nor would I want a guy like Bob Huggins.  There are some things that are more important than winning.  I don't believe Bo has reached that point because overall, I think he does care about his players, but my point is there is no comparison between Bo's behavior and TM's at this point.        

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tim did say in the post game that he would need to "go to church" because that timeout. :)

 

So maybe he said more than we think, but that's okay.

 

I have also seen Bo go off and if you read his lips he is fired up about something positive and it just looks negative.

 

Just who he is, nobody is going to change him but him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking of substitutions, it felt like Dylan was taken out of the game towards the end because the game was in hand.

Shields with 4 fouls, had some contact under the hoop on a defensive rebound and I was sure that he'd fouled out of the game.  He was then pulled for Talley for a bit until all the subs came in.

 

Anyone else see this?

Dimes, I thought that Dylan was yanked because of a turnover.  He had just gotten a steal, and then tried to make a pass up the floor and it was stolen right back...I caught Miles looking immediately to his assistants, and then to the bench to substitute.  Miles then went to visit with Dyan and then Harriman went down and visited with Dylan...a few possessions later, Dylan went back in.  A minute or two later, we had a quasa-breakaway, and instead of taking a risky shot, Ray pulled the ball out and we ran through our offense. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolute no comparison between Bo and TM IMO.  There is a HUGE difference between a CONTROLLED and completely calculated butt-chewing that a team needs to regain its focus (Miles) vs. a completely out-of-control spewing of unrestrained vitriol by a raving lunatic who is foaming at the mouth.  Further, TM's little outburst was directed at the entire team--no individual player was singled out or shamed in any regard.  Further, even though I have heard and know that TM can have a sharp tongue, I don't think those words were used in the arena at that time because that was not the proper time for those words,  Bo's completely out-of-control tantrums make censors cower and sailors blush.  Not to mention his face looks like a madman who is ready to rip the players (or refs) head off, chew on it, and spit it out. 

 

When Bo goes on a rage, he is out-of-control.  He is raving and ranting because he is utterly beside himself and says the things he says out of rage, not out of correction or teaching.  When it reaches that point, it is beyond the pale.  Just look at his conduct after the NU v. TX game in the Big 12 championship.  He was still enraged almost an hour after the game.  He was storming up and down the halls looking like he wanted to beats someone up and yelling "The BCS, that's why they make that call!"  to no one in particular while TO was calmly standing in the same hallway to witness the whole ordeal.    Bo call's refs names that are unrepeatable in any living room.  This is in STARK contrast to TM's technical against Purdue when all TM did was walk to center court and yell "you need to call that travel!"  No profanitly laced tirade for the whole world to hear.  TM was in control the whole time and it was obvious.  THAT Is the huge difference and the whole difference.

 

And for the record, I would never want Bobby Knight to coach here nor would I want a guy like Bob Huggins.  There are some things that are more important than winning.  I don't believe Bo has reached that point because overall, I think he does care about his players, but my point is there is no comparison between Bo's behavior and TM's at this point.        

 

No offense diehard - but I don't think you could have written anything that more clearly demonstrated my point. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

HuskerBB, I beg to differ about Danny.  I've mentioned on here before his conduct during practices that I watched.  That was before the boycott and when that boycott happened, I had to say it didn't surprise me.  Danny was still winning at that point, but I wanted him gone then.  When he was interviewing at Rutgers or wherever, I rejoiced. 

 

I see something qualitatively different about Danny and Timmy.  And basketball is a different sport.  The bench is a lot more accessible to a coach who needs to do some extra "coaching" than in football. 

 

I guess, in my view with Bo, he goes to the well too often with the demonstrative anger bit.  I honestly haven't seen that out of Miles even considering the bench is right there.  We talked about this kind of thing years ago in my military leadership training.  If a leader is constantly chewing his subordinate's asses, it loses effectiveness.  It might work as a once-in-awhile thing but not as your go-to, standard practice. 

 

Obviously I don't know what you witnessed - I did see Danny swear at his players plenty of times - at practice and games.  Saw Doc do the same thing probably more vehemently than I ever saw from Danny.   (Neither came anywhere close to what I heard from Calhoun though - calling a player a f*@k*r was a compliment compared to what I heard Calhoun say).   But I am sure Danny swore at his players just as much from 1990 to 1995 when everyone loved him as he did later when people started to complain about it - which was obviously right arount the time he flirted with Rutgers.   I know you went to practice alot - surprised you did not see similar things from Doc as Danny because in my much more limited exposure that was certainly my impression.  Heck I can remember a practice where Collier went out of his way to embarrass Kimani Ffriend - did not call him out using bad langauge but made it very clear to everyone in the gym that he "questioned Kimani's intellectual capacity" to put it nicely.

 

I will grant you that at times Danny did lose respect of his players - which is the evidence of a problem that would be a concern and is clearly not the situation with either Miles or Pelini.  I think in most cases that has a genesis in something other than language used at practice.   The boycott you mention came about in large part from issues that were going on far away from the basketball court.

 

Again - I don't personally have a problem with ANY of these coaches in terms of there use of bad language in moments of intensity at practice or during games.  Not saying that is the way I would coach necessarily but it is very common behavior in the coaching profession and I suspect that includes Miles at least to some extent - probably less than Danny - but I don't recall Danny doing anything during a game like what Miles did the other day either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think pretty much every coach in pro and college (and many in HS - and many times horribly, some even at the grade school level) get after their players.  It is the style that they go after them that can be an issue.  The thing about someone like Bo is that he is totally up front and honest with his players.  Most players will go to war with a coach like Bo. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think pretty much every coach in pro and college (and many in HS - and many times horribly, some even at the grade school level) get after their players.  It is the style that they go after them that can be an issue.  The thing about someone like Bo is that he is totally up front and honest with his players.  Most players will go to war with a coach like Bo. 

Or they'll transfer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolute no comparison between Bo and TM IMO.  There is a HUGE difference between a CONTROLLED and completely calculated butt-chewing that a team needs to regain its focus (Miles) vs. a completely out-of-control spewing of unrestrained vitriol by a raving lunatic who is foaming at the mouth.  Further, TM's little outburst was directed at the entire team--no individual player was singled out or shamed in any regard.  Further, even though I have heard and know that TM can have a sharp tongue, I don't think those words were used in the arena at that time because that was not the proper time for those words,  Bo's completely out-of-control tantrums make censors cower and sailors blush.  Not to mention his face looks like a madman who is ready to rip the players (or refs) head off, chew on it, and spit it out. 

 

When Bo goes on a rage, he is out-of-control.  He is raving and ranting because he is utterly beside himself and says the things he says out of rage, not out of correction or teaching.  When it reaches that point, it is beyond the pale.  Just look at his conduct after the NU v. TX game in the Big 12 championship.  He was still enraged almost an hour after the game.  He was storming up and down the halls looking like he wanted to beats someone up and yelling "The BCS, that's why they make that call!"  to no one in particular while TO was calmly standing in the same hallway to witness the whole ordeal.    Bo call's refs names that are unrepeatable in any living room.  This is in STARK contrast to TM's technical against Purdue when all TM did was walk to center court and yell "you need to call that travel!"  No profanitly laced tirade for the whole world to hear.  TM was in control the whole time and it was obvious.  THAT Is the huge difference and the whole difference.

 

And for the record, I would never want Bobby Knight to coach here nor would I want a guy like Bob Huggins.  There are some things that are more important than winning.  I don't believe Bo has reached that point because overall, I think he does care about his players, but my point is there is no comparison between Bo's behavior and TM's at this point.        

 

No offense diehard - but I don't think you could have written anything that more clearly demonstrated my point. 

You referenced Bo and TM in the same post after discussing TM yelling at his players during a TO.  No offense, but to the extent you compared TM's behavior to Bo's behavior, your point is fundamentally flawed because there is no comparison.  And that was what my response was directed to, which I made clear.

 

To the extent you were comparing Bo to "other" coaches, I did not respond (other than to say I would not want some like Bobby Huggins coaching this team even if he could win games).  But to say that people's attitudes towards a coach are colored by their opinions is also flawed because it is just the reverse.  People's opinions of a coach are formed by that coach's actions.  And my momma always taught me that "just because someone else does it doesn't make it right."  And to pick out one single instance in a 25+ year head coaching career of TO where he got very red in the face while yelling at the refs and suggest that is the same as Bo is out of the realm.  Again, no comparison and everyone knows it (and I am not really a TO apologist in any respect.)  

 

Again, my response was not directed at comparing Bo to "other coaches", it was comparing Bo to TM's recent behavior, in which there is no comparison. (and with that said, it is possible that TM could end up being more like Bo than not--we don't have enough basis to say at this point.  I am just saying that as of what we have witnessed to date, including that Timeout, there is no comparison).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...