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Going forward


ajb5856

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The biggest thing that I see when looking at the 5 is that Borchardt at least seemingly understands and fits his role and is thus more efficient.  None of our bigs are going to give us consistent offensive production.  With Tanner, he's there to do his job and he gets some clean up buckets.   Jordy gets the ball and tries to force things offensively at times.   He has terrible hands, little touch and can't jump over a French textbook thus resulting in many wasted trips and opportunities.  

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1 hour ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

I think you're right on this.

 

Earlier in the season, like heading into the CU game, I posted a thread that I was ready to see Roby start.  I thought he would be a good match up against CU, which lacked a big post presence but had bigs who could hit from outside.

 

Since that time, though, Isaiah has shown a propensity to get into foul trouble.  And I totally agree you want him on the floor at the end of the game, not fouling out with 5 minutes to play.

 

Purdue is huge.  They go about 8 1/2 deep.  They have about 40 minutes worth of guys who are 7'2" or taller.  Haas gives them right at 21.5 min/game and then KU transfer Matt Haarms (7'3", 250#) gives them the other 18.5 min/game at the 5.  So, they're huge the whole game long.  Our bigs are not going to be in there to give us offense; the trio of Jordy, Duby, and Tanner will be there to push and shove Haas and Haarms as much as possible so that, with 5 minutes to play, they don't have the legs to chase down a Roby and a Copeland.

 

I'm totally good with that.  And what Jimmy said. Now isn't the time to screw around with the lineup.

Agreed - I was thinking the same thing vs CU - and I think there will be opponents coming up where Roby fits far better at the 5 size wise and should get a bigger chunk of the minutes, say like Michigan. Against a guy like Wagner, that's where it'd be nice to have a big guy that could abuse him offensively, wearing him down on that end by making him guard down low. But at this point, we don't have that going.

 

Maybe Wisky too, although I'm not sure if there is a perfect answer vs Happ. 

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1 hour ago, rr52 said:

The problem I see with NU's big's is twofold. Not only are they no real threats to score (Borchardt does appear to be able to catch the ball and make a shot) but they clog the lane and the man guarding them doesn't have to leave the paint to defend them.  When Roby and Copeland played at same time it really opened up the middle because NW's bigs had to vacate the lane defensively and it opened things up for blow by dunks by Palmer and Copeland. It also creates openings for offensive rebounds as well. It's a heckuva lot easier to just turn and check somebody out 4 feet from the basket then to try find and then box out Roby or Copeland 17 feet from the hoop. There is also the chance for a kick out 3 if help gets there from the guards. But I do think Jordy needs to be the starter and maybe he finds his mojo. 

Yes yes yes! Spread the floor. Create space.

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We have the great ability to both match up and/or create match up problems.  The rotation seems set, and minute distribution will be predicated on a number of factors (fouls, who is hot, who is not, et al).  I am pretty comfortable with the decisions the coaches are making.  But we have to limit empty possessions, and addle minded behavior on the floor.  We are at that point where a possession or two affects the outcome of the game. 

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2 hours ago, Chuck Taylor said:

Tanner's one positive on offense over Duby and Jordy is that he actually sets the high screen, waits for his teammate to use it, and then goes hard to the basket. He's not an offensive threat on his own, but just doing that helps create space by forcing a defender to account for him. I can't stand watching a screener arrive late and leave early. No purpose in running the set if you're not going to do it right. Duby's limited offensively, but he could provide some easy points if he'd execute this better. He's faster than Tanner and more explosive to the rim.

 

Somebody had to provide an old man rant of the day, happy to oblige.

I wish I knew how to screen shot. There were a couple times our C was trying to set a screen and it looked like they had no idea how to do it. I am amazed at how useless our pick and rolls seem to be some times.

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6 hours ago, Norm Peterson said:

 

I think you're right on this.

 

Earlier in the season, like heading into the CU game, I posted a thread that I was ready to see Roby start.  I thought he would be a good match up against CU, which lacked a big post presence but had bigs who could hit from outside.

 

Since that time, though, Isaiah has shown a propensity to get into foul trouble.  And I totally agree you want him on the floor at the end of the game, not fouling out with 5 minutes to play.

 

Purdue is huge.  They go about 8 1/2 deep.  They have about 40 minutes worth of guys who are 7'2" or taller.  Haas gives them right at 21.5 min/game and then KU transfer Matt Haarms (7'3", 250#) gives them the other 18.5 min/game at the 5.  So, they're huge the whole game long.  Our bigs are not going to be in there to give us offense; the trio of Jordy, Duby, and Tanner will be there to push and shove Haas and Haarms as much as possible so that, with 5 minutes to play, they don't have the legs to chase down a Roby and a Copeland.

 

I'm totally good with that.  And what Jimmy said. Now isn't the time to screw around with the lineup.

 

Minor correction: I don't believe Haarms is a Kansas transfer; he was a post-grad recruit from Sunrise Christian Academy, which is in Kansas. He committed to the Boilermakers and joined the team for the second semester last year, using his redshirt. He's a more mobile big option than Haas and is a better defender.

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10 hours ago, rr52 said:

The problem I see with NU's big's is twofold. Not only are they no real threats to score (Borchardt does appear to be able to catch the ball and make a shot) but they clog the lane and the man guarding them doesn't have to leave the paint to defend them.  When Roby and Copeland played at same time it really opened up the middle because NW's bigs had to vacate the lane defensively and it opened things up for blow by dunks by Palmer and Copeland. It also creates openings for offensive rebounds as well. It's a heckuva lot easier to just turn and check somebody out 4 feet from the basket then to try find and then box out Roby or Copeland 17 feet from the hoop. There is also the chance for a kick out 3 if help gets there from the guards. But I do think Jordy needs to be the starter and maybe he finds his mojo. 

X 1000. Can’t just look at the player and his production (or lack thereof) in isolation.  Having a big like Jordy or Duby that can’t shoot and can’t pound down low bogs down the entire team and the entire offense. Our wings spent the entire first half trying to ram into the paint but NW had 5 defenders sitting it paint waiting for the.  THis has been happening game after game after game. If you put Roby at the 5 that could be worth 10 extra points per half even if he never scored a point himself just by opening up the lane with his gravity

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There seems to be a general consensus that Roby should be playing more minutes (25+), yet there also seems to be a consensus that the current rotations are fine and shouldn’t be changed. Not sure I follow this logic. Roby is averaging only 19 minutes per game (which is an abomination IMO). That is what the current rotation allows.  Can’t have it both ways. Either the rotation has to change or Roby’s Minutes stay too low. 

 

If your not willing to start Roby with Copeland and your not willing to play Roby significant minutes at 5, then the minutes just aren’t there. Miles loves his guards and will not play Roby at the 3. Copeland is playing 28 minutes at the 4 and I would expect this to increase to 30+ in conference. That only leaves 10 minutes for Roby at the 4. Please explain where Roby is going to get those other 17-20 minutes

Edited by NUdiehard
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1 hour ago, NUdiehard said:

There seems to be a general consensus that Roby should be playing more minutes (25+), yet there also seems to be a consensus that the current rotations are fine and shouldn’t be changed. Not sure I follow this logic. Roby is averaging only 19 minutes per game (which is an abomination IMO). That is what the current rotation allows.  Can’t have it both ways. Either the rotation has to change or Roby’s Minutes stay too low. 

 

If your not willing to start Roby with Copeland and your not willing to play Roby significant minutes at 5, then the minutes just aren’t there. Miles loves his guards and will not play Roby at the 3. Copeland is playing 28 minutes at the 4 and I would expect this to increase to 30+ in conference. That only leaves 10 minutes for Roby at the 4. Please explain where Roby is going to get those other 17-20 minutes

He'll get them by learning how to defend without fouling. He leads the team in fouls committed at 41, tied with Jordy. He averages a foul every 6.9 minutes. The player with the next most is Glynn at 40, but he averages a foul only every 11.25 minutes. Once Zay learns how to defend without fouling it'll be possible to put him on the floor for 25 minutes, until then, the rotation we've got now is as good as any.

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I would point out also that while our bigs aren't providing us a lot of scoring, I don't see it as they are otherwise just clogging the lanes for our drivers.  I've seen it multiple times in past games where someone would make a drive to the hoop, and our big would be able to seal off their defender, allowing an uncontested layup (or dunk).  That's been worth points right there too. 

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I think it is worth it to mention again that things are clicking as well.  The players seem comfortable with the rotation, everyone is happy, and we are winning.  That in itself is worth something right there.  I don't want to see us tinkering so much that it can affect chemistry and therefore wins and losses.

 

I know we haven't faced a lot of adversity yet, but I would argue that we have.  Yes, we haven't had that UGH loss this year, but we have had some demoralizing moments.  I would say losing to KU like we did after having lost to Creighton would have been a prime time for a letdown.  However we stuck with it, battled and have rattled off 4 straight.

 

I am all for Roby getting more minutes if he can provide while he is in there.  However, I also want to keep things the same as much as possible.  Why?  They are working.  Why try to fix something that isn't broken?  Sure, we might need to change the oil or put air in the tires... but  there is no reason to buy a whole new car. 

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I’ve continued to ponder on which lineups and combinations of players seem to click for us.  Because even though it’d be nice to just increase Player X’s minutes at the expense of Player Y’s, it’s not always that simple.  Sometimes Player X doesn’t gel as well with Player Z.  So with that in mind, some combinations that seem to go well together:

 

Glynn/Gill/JP/Cope/Roby.  The obvious lineup that everyone loves right now.

 

Allen/Taylor/JP.  The team looks very different (usually in a bad way) when Glynn goes to the bench.  This trio of players seems to mitigate the dropoff the best, since it provides experience, vocal leadership, ball-handling, scoring, and transition buckets.

 

Glynn/Tanner.  Last year Ed was the guy that could set a solid screen at the top of the key, then break hard to the basket to finish off a lazerbeam pass from Watson.  That was missed this year until Tanner started getting non-garbage time minutes.  I like how Glynn and Tanner work together.

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It looks to me that our staff has their collective fingers on the pulse of this team.  Despite some moves and line ups that raise my eyebrows, I typically have been okay with the various combinations that have been on the court.  We have great versatility.  That said, I am the first to admit my frustrations when I see players underperform or fail to meet basic expectations. 

 

I will throw the following out for added discussion.  There were a number of games last year that Jack played very well and helped the team, yet this year, he rarely is seeing the floor.  What happened?  Well, my short response is that others are outperforming him.  At the beginning of the season, most thought that Jack would be a member of the rotation.  Hmm.  So if a player is performing at an expectation level of the coaching staff, he will be on the floor -- correct?

 

What should that tell me?  I am of the mindset that those players who are getting minutes are earning those specific minutes.  I may not agree with the dispersal of those minutes, but there seems to be a reason.

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When making my early season predictions i did not predict Gill and Taylor to BOTH be playing 25+ minutes at a pretty efficient rate. 

 

I thought we would go with a bigger lineup with Copeland and Roby playing the two forward spots while Jack got his minutes backing them both up.

 

I was wrong.

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On 1/3/2018 at 1:15 PM, throwback said:

Agreed - I was thinking the same thing vs CU - and I think there will be opponents coming up where Roby fits far better at the 5 size wise and should get a bigger chunk of the minutes, say like Michigan. Against a guy like Wagner, that's where it'd be nice to have a big guy that could abuse him offensively, wearing him down on that end by making him guard down low. But at this point, we don't have that going.

 

Maybe Wisky too, although I'm not sure if there is a perfect answer vs Happ. 

I think the best answer to Happ is attack him early and often.  Make him defend.  While he's certainly improved on his freshmen year propensity to get in foul trouble, I think he's still susceptible to it.  He can't do any offensive damage sitting on the pines.

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41 minutes ago, khoock said:

When making my early season predictions i did not predict Gill and Taylor to BOTH be playing 25+ minutes at a pretty efficient rate. 

 

I thought we would go with a bigger lineup with Copeland and Roby playing the two forward spots while Jack got his minutes backing them both up.

 

I was wrong.

Gill has been the big surprise this season for me.  Didn't expect much out of him because of the many injuries.  Good for him.

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If we are competitive and Roby is fresh and not in foul trouble at the 5-7ish minute mark at the end of the game playing, I think our rotation has been good and our bigs have done their part.

 

Combined against NW, JT/TB/DO:

 

32min

8pts

6blks

2stls

10rbs

 

^^^ If we had one guy getting stats like that (6 blocks?!), we would think he was an All-Conference center.  I like that we have depth and are taking advantage of our centers being fresh.  There is way too much stock being put into Jordy starting.  It doesn't matter.  He is going to split time with Duby and Tanner, wear down opposing bigs, and then our staff will wreak havoc with a fresh Roby when everyone else is putting in their true bench players.  

 

It's not like Roby is dominating games.  We can all see he will be down the road, but not yet.  His stat line from NW:

 

19min

5pts (2-5)

2blks 

1stl

1rb

2a (no TOs)

 

^^^ These aren't world-beater numbers yet, but they are great compliments to the other 3 guys at the 5 position. 

 

There are 5 players who got more minutes than Roby against NW, and none of them are centers.  He's getting a pretty fair shake right now, in my opinion.  

 

--------------

 

In a similar parallel, I think Gill is getting similar treatment to Roby, which is a good thing.  He didn't start, but he played 26 minutes (more than starter ET) and is averaging double figures on the season.  He's been phenomenal.

 

I really think, moving forward, there is going to be a concerted effort to end games with:

 

Watson

Gill

Taylor

Copeland

Roby

 

^^^ That's definitely our best lineup, but if we can have ET/JT/TB/TA/DO throwing body punches all game, it makes us an extremely dangerous team in the final rounds.  I mean, we beat the piss out of NW last night starting at about 7 minutes left.  They were dead and we were just getting started.  Very encouraging stuff.  At home, that's going to be an amazing advantage.  

 

 

 

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